Questions on nymphs, leaders, droppers and more.

[sjpresley]

Please bear with me, these are a few of the things that occurred to me this weekend while fishing. I would appreciate any insight into any of these topics based on the years of experience and sage-like knowledge many of you possess. Thanks in advance, for any help you can provide.

I wouldn't mind getting in a hour or so of fishing on my way to work....is 6:00 am too early to go nymphing? or should that be just fine?

How does low (or high) water affect nymph fly selection? or the efficacy of nymph fishing in general?

When fishing nymphs, do you guys move up stream, down, or does it depend? I ask in part because I've been fishing the Fenton, Mt. Hope, and Bigelow Brook whick are all pretty small to very small water that have over-hanging branches in most/many places. These streams offer few opportunities to do much casting up and across. Some times I've been letting the fly drift down stream from me (no real casting involved) and sometimes I cast upstream but the angles but there isn't much room to do anything but cast almost straight up stream. Is one of these methods preferred in such cases?

I started fishing with a dropper this weekend as per the advice of some sages on this board. I did hook (and then loose) a trout on the stimulator I was using and caught a few browns on the nymph, but the stimulator was getting molested by various species of minnow much of the day which ruined some nice drifts. In these cases is it best to use a strike indicator (if your a newbie like me and need such aid)?

I tend to use a pretty long leader (usually around 9-11'), don't know why, I just don't much care for it when my leader starts getting short (i.e., around 8'). I don't have a problem casting this very often, but adding a dropper put me at about 12' or so of leader/tippet material. I could still cast (and false cast) with both the stimulator and nymph, but there were times that a shorter leader would have helped me fit into some tight spots. Am I insane to use such long leaders? Could (or should) I shorten up a couple of feet with no ill effects?

Is there any "rule" about length of leader with respect to rod length? A 12' leader on a 7'6" 4wt rod just seemed a little silly to me when I actually thought about it.


Thanks again. Hope that wasn't too tedious.

[treehooker]

Can't give you any great advice on nymphing because I stink at it (working on it, though), but I've fished small streams alot, including the Mt Hope & Fenton, and can at least make a couple of casting suggestions.

Roll casting works on these streams. You can even fish the nearer water first and "hop" the fly out farther with a couple of successive shorter rolls if need be.

Sidearm casting works as well, and you can put a little upstream slack in the line at the end of the cast to give yourself a little extra drift.


You can also let the current create your "backcast" for you by letting your line hang down stream and starting your forward cast from the surface.
Actually, you can just backcast at the end of the drift and it'll put your fly back upstream.

In these little streams where you want to try to stay out of the water this kind of line manipulation can work.

I'm no expert on leaders, and I know long leaders are often recommended for nymphing, but 12 feet seems a little long to me for the Mt Hope. Its just that it "feels" like setting the hook might be awkward.

[The Fisherman]

So many questions! All very good ones, by the way. Here are a few answers. Bear in mind that this is just one man's opinion, although I rather like the sound of "sage". :wink:

1. Certainly one can nymph any time of the day. I've caught fish on nymphs all hours of the day. Keep in mind, though, that 6am May 9 is not the same condition as 6am August 9. Different water, different light, different hatches. Also, the ~best~ time to nymph is right before a hatch comes off. Time that right and you could be into trout big time. But, the generic answer is "yes". Also, time of day isn't (IMHO) as important as finding where the fish are feeding.

2. Water level...this could be a chapter in a book. Briefly, in lower water I find that trout tend to be more in pockets, pools and seams. In high water, in pools and banks. I use weight in high/fast water to get the flies down. I might go one size up in flies in higher water. I'd use more attractor nymph (i.e. Yellow Prince) patterns in high water. I don't ever use too many different nymph patterns, though. I could go a whole season with just Pheasant Tails, Caddis larva, Copper Johns, and Prince permutations.

3. Depends. There are those who swear that fishing upstream is the ONLY way to fish, and you'll suffer dire fishless consequences if you don't. That has not been my experience, although in some smaller streams you need to be cautious about spooking fish. But, to the specifics of your question: I spend a lot of time on WTMAs, and I've found the best method in tight areas is to use a puffball indicator, strip out 20-40 feet of line, stealthily move one pool above where you want to fish, and let the flies float down into the target pool. At the end of the drift, jerk the rod tip and haul the flies upstream for your next drift. What you really need to fish these small streams is a 6' fly rod. Makes life waaaaay easier.

4. By all means, switch to a puffball if the Stimulator is drawing unwanted hits.

5. I use a 9 foot leader tapered to 5x. If it gets short, I just add 5x to get it back to 9 feet. I almost never use tippet smaller that 5x when nymphing. Sometimes 6x on a dropper.

6. I don't know of any such rule, but I think this gets into the area of personal preference. Personally, I think in times of shy trout a longer tippet will put you in better stead.

Hope that helps, and good luck!

[The Patriot]

Wow..... lots of questions..... you really wanna make us work hard..... :wink:

JK! Remember, I'm not proficient at this, but I have a pretty good idea of what I'm SUPPOSED to be doing. You know what they say.... those who CAN'T... TEACH! :wink:


"I wouldn't mind getting in a hour or so of fishing on my way to work....is 6:00 am too early to go nymphing? or should that be just fine"

GO FOR IT! Low light periods are times of "behavioral drift" when the bugs move to other areas for the day time, or otherwise rearrange themselves in the stream, perhaps in preparation for that day's emergence. Nymphing can be done just about anytime of day, even in the dark of night, although you'll be fishing completely by feel, which is hard to do when nymphing since the fish can reject an imposter faster than you can take your hand off a hot burner, hence the popularity and application of strike indicators. ( I wonder if they make glow in the dark indicators?) I think the preferred option for darkness is streamers.

BTW, since you mentioned streamers :wink: , that's another good choice for 6am fishing. The fish, particularly larger piscavore trout, are active at low light and prowling for a larger meal, and you can cover more water faster with streamers than you can with nymphs.

But the short answer, which is not my long suit :wink: , is YES, you can fish nymphs at 6am, it is not too early...... :D

Next......



"How does low (or high) water affect nymph fly selection? or the efficacy of nymph fishing in general?"

As a general rule of thumb the lower and slower and clearer the water, the smaller your flies should be. The higher and faster and darker the water, the larger your flies should be. Think about it. If the water is low and clear and the fish can see a country mile and get a very good look at everything, your size 6 or 8 stonefly imitation is going to stick out like a sore thumb as a fake. But a size 16 or 18 pheasant tail may not. But remember that size is relative. If you're fishing at low flows, but fishing a faster run that holds natural stone flies, you may get away with a size 10 or 12 stonefly imitation. Another good time to use at least two flies, one bigger and one smaller. If the water is high and fast and maybe a little off color, a larger fly will get noticed faster and the fish have to make a quicker decision, so larger flies can be effective in such conditions. I have used VERY large stonefly imitations in June and July, big yellow stonefly nymphs size 6 and 8, and taken fish, but I choose them based on the piece of water I'm fishing. Stoneflies like fast, highly oxygenated runs. So do fish.

As for the efficacy of nymph fishing in general in high vs low water..... *** does efficacy mean? :shock: :wink: Nymph fishing can be effective in either, if adjusted accordingly..... :D



"When fishing nymphs, do you guys move up stream, down, or does it depend?"

It depends. Typically, I prefer to approach fish from downstream, because they are facing upstream. But I will work a piece of water in both directions. I'll section it off and work my way up one section, then back down the next. Or I'll work my way up to a prime lie, and then work down into the water below it. But this is in a larger stream like the Farmington. Frankly, I don't fish smaller streams, but I've often read that the fish are best approached from downstream, so upstream roll casts or water hauls, as treehooker has suggested, are effective. If you're concerned about lining fish, use a left or right reach mend at the end of your cast to lay the line off to one side at an angle.

The problem with fishing downstream in small streams is the fish see you coming. It's easy to feed out line downstream with little or no casting, but what good does it do if the fish are spooked by seeing you or your shadow? Unless you can get well above the lie and feed out enough line to reach it. And remember that the deeper the water, the greater the fish's cone of vision. So sometimes you may be able to approach a fish closer in shallow water than you can in deeper water, and faster broken water also obscures their view, and the turbulence is noisy and provides both you and the fish cover. They feel safer under such conditions than in a calm pool, unless the pool is substantially deeper.



"...the stimulator was getting molested by various species of minnow much of the day which ruined some nice drifts. In these cases is it best to use a strike indicator (if your a newbie like me and need such aid)?"

First, those minnows may very well have moleted your stike indicator, just as they did your stimulator. Second, trout will often molest your indicator too. Third, strike indicators are not only for newbies. Fourth, adapt to the situation. If the minnows pestering your stimulator is a problem, try the indicator and see what happens. Like I said, they may still harass your indicator, but they may not. You've nothing to lose. Take a chance.... Columbus did! :wink:

The advantage to the fly instead of the indicator is that you've got an opportunity to fish both the top and bottom at the same time. And the dry is better camaflauge than an indicator. I like using dry/dropper set ups better than indicators in very shallow water, especially slower water, since placing a stike indicator three feet above a nymph may be too close and alert fish (if they're not chasing the indicator, they may be running away from it). If the water is less than two or three feet deep, I'd use a dry as an indicator, leave the indicator in the vest. I don't use droppers of more than 3 feet long off my dries, as a practical matter of casting. So I'm good to about 2 feet deep.

But if the water is more than 3 feet deep and I can put the indicator 4 and a half feet up, I'll go to an indicator, since a 3 foot dropper in over 3 feet of water won't get me to the bottom. Follow?

Before I got the bug to learn to nymph the bottom, I used to fish nymphs exclusively as a dropper off the dry, beadheads, no split shot. My rationale was, why should I put anything in the water that doesn't have a hook in it, and therefore can't catch a fish? And I caught fish, too! (Maybe I should go back to doing what I know how to do, and forget all this split shot and indicator nonsense :oops: :? :roll:) :wink:



"Am I insane to use such long leaders? Could (or should) I shorten up a couple of feet with no ill effects?

Is there any "rule" about length of leader with respect to rod length? A 12' leader on a 7'6" 4wt rod just seemed a little silly to me when I actually thought about it."

There are no "rules" in flyfishing. Leaders, like everything else, should be adjusted to the situation and conditions. I would think a leader that long would be unnecessary, and perhaps a hinderance, in such smaller streams. But they may be exactly what you need in bigger water, like the Farmington or Hous, depending on exactly where you are fishingand the conditions at the time. A leader may be perfect for a shallow run, but need to be lengthened if you move to a deeper faster run and need to get your fly to the bottom.

Again, I'm not a great nymph fisherman, nor do I fish small streams much, but I THINK if I were approaching such a situation, with a 7'6" 4 wt in a smaller stream, I might start with a 6 foot 4x leader, add a foot or foot and a half of 4X or 5X flourocarbon, and then a foot of 5X fc. My leader is now 8, 8 and a half feet long, slightly longer than the rod. The shot, if any, goes on the last tippet knot, and the first fly goes on the end, dropper, if any, tied to the bend of the hook.

For a dry/dropper setup in a smaller stream, take the 6 foot 4x leader, add a foot or so of 5 or 6x mono, depending on conditions and the size of the dry, and tie the dry fly at the end of a 7 or 7 and a half foot leader. Tie up to three feet of 5X fc to the bend of the dry fly, and put your nymph there.

Remember, you have to adapt to the conditions, and you can always make your leader longer by adding tippet, if you find the fish are leader shy and are spooking. But I think 12 feet of leader on a 7 and a half foot 4 wt rod in a small stream is way too long.



You're very welcome...... I hope this helps..... and I hope I wasn't too long winded :wink: :lol:

..... shut up Dave.... :P

[sjpresley]

Thanks for the advice guys.

Having spent most of my fly fishing time on smaller streams, I've never had the luxury of open areas for casting. As such, I can NOT cast overhand. Side arm (either forhand or backhand) and 3/4...but over the top I just have no feel for what the line is doing, no timing, I suck. I have also noticed the I get better results in windy conditions casting sidearm; the leader just seems to turn over (in this case, I guess it's more of a "turn left" or "turn right") with less influence from the wind.

I just bought a 7/6" Pflueger purist 4wt (with reel) on ebay last week for $27. I figured it was worth $27, even having never cast one, just to get something smaller for some of these streams (all I had was a 9' 6 wt). I actually really like the rod (so far). It was casting DT line with a long leader pretty well (and acurately) into a breeze.