Nymphing question

[sjpresley]

Since I first tied on a nymph this year, I can count the number of times I've tied on a dry fly on one hand. In general, I've been nymphing or using streamers. I've been pretty happy with the results, but I am concerned that I am doing something wrong. About 80% (maybe more) of the fish I catch strike on the swing or at the beginning of the retrieve right after that. Most of the water I fish is small and rarely more than 4' deep. I've been using both BH and non-BH patterns depending on depth and water speed. But I just don't seem to be getting as much on the drift as I should.

Any suggestions on what I might try differently?

[The Patriot]

As long as you're catching fish.... who cares where they're taking! Don't mess with success! I should have such problems! :P :D

If you're not getting takes upstream or across stream, maybe your fly isn't deep enough? Are you ticking bottom and getting hung up a little every now and then? Are you mending line upstream to let the fly(s) sink, and getting a good drag free drift?

Just a few things to check....

My problem is that I just don't get many hits nymphing to begin with... so you won't get any sympathy from me..... :P :D

[Housy Dave]

I can count the number of times I've tied on a dry fly on one hand

Yes! So can I! For me it's only been 3 times in all of 2006. Once I was a little drunk so do you really want to count that? We'll say 2-1/2 then. I can still make the claim that I have yet to tie or purchase a dry fly all year.

It's a little odd that almost all your fish are coming near the end of a drift. Assuming that it is not just coincidental, there is an explanation for it: The flies are not in the strike zone during most of the drift, or they are in the zone for a very brief period just prior to the end of the drift and this happens to be the only time the fish are able to see them. The fish are likely chasing them from the bottom to the middle water, and your hooking the fish while the flies are swinging.

To fix the problem you've got to get your flies to sink faster once they hit the water. You want the highest possible sink rate. I have to ask, but do you use split shot and strike indicators? You didn't mention anything. :?

If so, it's not really as simple as adding more weight. IMO, this is the wrong way to go about it. There are drag and bouyancy forces acting on your line and flies. I think about minimizing these forces before I start piling on more weight. FWIW, the beads that are on bead head nymphs are completely inadequate, by themselves, to sink the fly in a moderate current. For that reason, I personally do not see any good reason to use bead head flies.

Maybe you're leader design is not quite right for nymphing? Can you describe what you are using? If you are already using split shot and strike indicators, that is the other thing I would pay attention to. The shop tapered leaders, IMO, are terrible for nymph fishing. I think all they're good for is fishing dry flies or streamers. I usually tie my own leaders.

A few things to keep in mind about leaders:

-Lighter line has less bouyancy in water and will sink faster

-Flurocarbon sinks faster than mono due to a slightly greater density.

-A longer leader is much harder to detect strikes with since there can be more slack. So you may be getting some takes on the drift, but you just don't see them. If you say you are always fishing < 4 feet of water, the leaded can be as short as 7 feet. A pretty good rule of thumb is 1 and a half times the water depth.

-It requires more weight to achieve the same sink rate with heavier line than it does with lighter line.

-With more heavily weighted flies and more added weight on the line, a heavier leader is needed to turn over the flies.

-If you try to add lots of split shot on very light line (smaller than 4x), it will tangle much easier.

[sjpresley]

I am honored, oh Mighty Housy Dave, that you would take interest in my nymphing infancy.

To give more detail, I have been using strike indicators (or a stimulator, but I dropped (pun intended) the stimulator because dace and other minnows kept knocking it about and sinking it). I just received, but haven't used, a couple of the Sierra Pacific pop tops. I've been using the cheap Palsa SIs. Usually, situated about 4-6' above the fly. I have NOT used any split shot, though I do have some in my vest.

I do get snagged from time to time, but not often; and sometimes the stike indicator lightly "wobbles". Sometimes I tighten the line to make sure it wasn't a strike, usually I let it go because it will continue to do it, which I take for evidence that the fly is hitting bottom.

I do think most of the fish are chasing the fly on the swing, and as it come up when I start the retrieve is when I get the majority of the strikes. I've actually gotten quite good at picking a spot that looks "fishy" and floating the nymph down near it with a "swing and rise" designed to happen in the fishy spot. I catch most of my fish doing this.

Today at the Willimantic TMA I had 4 strikes (and 1 fish) in 1/2 hour, ALL of the strikes where in the first or second strip of line after the swing. Anyway....

I usually use "store bought" leaders. I recently bought a couple of hand tied 5' furled leaders, they aren't FC, but they sink fairly easily/quickly. The guy I bought them from says that flotant is a must to use them for dry flies, so I thought they would be perfect. I haven't bought any FC tippet material, yet. In part, because of the expense and how much tippet I seem to go through, but if it will help get and keep the fly down. Well, I guess it's time for a switch.


I was trying to keep things as simple as possible to start, thus the omission of using split shot. But, I guess I need to start adding weight. Should I put it above or below the fly? Any advice on how much weight?

I just bought "Nymphing Stategies" by Larry Tullis. I just started reading from the beginning so I haven't actually gotten to the chapter on rigging, yet.

As for other bits of info that may matter, I've been using a 7'6" 3wt rod (the Willimantic and Natchaug are the biggest rivers I've fished), with DT floating line. I also have a 7'6" 4wt rod (both DT and FW floating lines), and a 5/6wt rod (which sucks and I'm looking to replace) with both DT and WF line floating lines. What would be the optimal "nymphing" setup for smaller rivers like this that often don't offer much casting room (like the Bigelow and Fenton).?

[Housy Dave]

Nothing wrong with your equipment...I think what you have is fine. Anything from a 3 to a 6 weight could be used. Having the rod and reel weight as little as possible is optimal...only because your holding it up high all day. A longer rod helps keep more line off the water which improves your drifts. The trade off with a longer rod is that it will feel a little heavier since your holding it high and the line is leveraged farther from you.

Yeah, nothing like good ol fashioned split shot. I use the dinsmore tin shot. It's painted green, which IMO is a little less noticable and less likely to put a fish off. I'm sure some will say that it doesn't matter, but I like to think that I'm giving myself every possible advantage. Put the weight about 10-12" above the fly. Most people build their leader so there is a knot about this far away from the first fly, then put the shot just above the knot to keep it from slipping down. I carry two different sizes (BB and size 6). Most of the time I am using either 1 or two BBs depending on current and depth. I use the size 6 in very slow water, shallow water, or if I'm trying to fish near the surface during a hatch.

For indicators I like the tipper brand. They float well and stay on the line better than the others I've tried. I would steer clear of anything from fish pimp. In slower water, scale down the size of the indicator...makes less of a disturbance on the surface. To nymph very slow water, I use float putty instead of a foam indicator. Only a very small amount is needed to suspend the flies and I can pretty much make a normal fly cast with it.

My fav fluro line is the Frog Hair. Expensive, but it is sooo much better than mono. It is supple, has low memory, and is much less prone to tangling and rat-tailing. You spend more money on line, but when you suddenly don't have to deal with the frustration of untangling nymphing rigs all day, and enjoy fishing more, it seems worth it.

I think the ideal leader formula is different for every fishing situation, but just understand what makes one kind of leader better suited than another for a given scenario. When you nymph with shot and indicator, you ideally want the flies to be straight down directly below the indicator, running just off the bottom. That way when a fish takes your fly it immediately translates to motion of the indicator and you can react. Obviously, with the current, the flies will never be directly below the indicator, this is just an idealization. A leader I like is to use the first two feet from a shop tapered leader for the butt section, then add 1 foot of 10 or 12 pound test to create some taper, then go directly to 6 lb fluro or lighter the rest of the way. I always keep the indicator on the heavier line to prevent it from coming off. If you put it directly on top of one of the knots it will be even more secure. This works well because the lightweight flurocarbon so close to the heavy line almost forms a hinge at the surface, and the flies are much closer to being directly below the indicator. The lighter line sinks very quickly without having to add so much weight. As long as I'm not using a lot of weight and/or a very long leader, there is no problem turning the flies over with it.

My way is not the only way...all I can tell you is what I do and why I do it. I think anyone could do the same and have success. Nothing magic or mighty about it.

TL, Dave

[sjpresley]

Thanks, Dave.

I'll get some FC, I already have some Dinsmore Tin shot. I'll shorten up my leader a bit, add some weight, and see what happens.

By the way, you said, "Most people build their leader so there is a knot about this far away from the first fly". How many flys do you usually rig-up?

[The Patriot]

" If you say you are always fishing < 4 feet of water, the leaded can be as short as 7 feet. A pretty good rule of thumb is 1 and a half times the water depth."


I thought that was the distance from the split shot to the indicator, not the entire length of the leader?

If you're fishing 4 feet of water, according to your formula Dave, your leader would only be 6 feet long? That can't be right.....Where does the indicator go?

I think perhaps you misspoke?

If you're fishing 4 feet of water, and your indicator goes 6 feet up from your weight..... how long is the entire leader?

What difference does it make how long the entire leader is, as long as the indicator is the proper distance from the weight? I would think that the leader above the indicator was inconsequential?

Enlighten us all, oh great and mighty Zen Guru Sensai Master of the nymph...... :P :wink: :D


Another possible factor that hasn't been discussed is cast/presntation.

This is just a thought, but perhaps the reason his flies aren't getting deep enough, or staying in the strike zone long enough, is that he is not casting the flies far enough upstream to allow them enough time to reach the desired depth? If he's casting across, or across and down, the flies may, as you Dave have suggested, only be in the strike zone for a moment before they begin to rise, at which point the fish follow them up like an emerging nymph and strike them at the end of the drift?

I don't know, I'm far from proficient at nymphing, but it's just a thought.

I know! We could have a separate forum, "Ask Dave About Nymphing" cuz he knows practically everything about it! :P :wink: :lol:

[sjpresley]

I assumed the "as short as 7'" comment was a minimum length for water shallower than 4'. As I listed 4' as the general max depth, it could be assumed that most/much of the time the water is less deep. Thus in 2-3 feet of water, on a 7' leader, you can put the strike indicator at about 4.5' above the fly, which is still 2.5' feet from the butt end of the leader. Ergo in 4' of water, a leader of 8-9 feet would be sufficient.

My guess is that if you are casting with split shot (SS), the shorter the leader, the better to avoid tangles and to ensure easy roll-over.

As for casting, I'll throw it out at about any angle and or distance from me to cover the water and/or vary the location of the end of the drift. On much of the water I fish there isn't much room for "across" casts. As such, much of the time I cast a good 10-15 m up stream and across as much as possible, and let the nymph float down to or past me, depending on the situation. Out of curiosity, I try to spot the fly if it passes near me to see what my cruising depth is...but I usually can't find the dang thing.

[The Patriot]

:oops:

Your reasoning is sound, but that one and a half times the water depth part honestly confused me.....

.... I'm easily confused..... :wink: especially about nymphing..... :P :D

[sjpresley]

I first learned to fly fish back in '93; got to fish a bit in '94 as well, then moved to the desert and stopped (part laziness, part lack of any fishing buddies). The first time around I mostly fished dry flies. Nnow in my second life of fly fishing it seems to me that it SEEMS like it is harder to catch fish on nymphs than on dry flies, when really it is easier. I admit that it is pretty cool to watch a fish take a fly off the water, but I'd rather catch 3 and not see the strike.

So far, I don't think I've thought about things related to nymphing enough to get myself confused. I go to the water, slap on one of the three patterns I've been using (varieties of HE, PT, or prince) and a SI, and try various things to see what works. I do swich patterns from time to time and refish the same water to see if it makes a difference, sometimes it does. I keep notes (I have to say, at this point I have been the least successful with the PT. I'm trying not to inundate myself with too much information, lest it all seem overwhelming.

[Housy Dave]

Yeah, a better way to have said it would be to take the distance from the indicator to either the fly or the split shot and make that about 1 and a half times the depth. Of course, you might need to modify this formula if the current is significantly faster or slower. I wasn't sure if sjpresley was even using indicators or split shot, so I didn't want to make it too confusing. Do you feel better now Jim :lol: Part of the reason why I always use an indicator is to determine if the drifts are good enough. If the drifts are no good then, I won't have any strikes, so the strike indicator isn't doing anything for me. The indicator should be drifting slightly slower than the current speed at the surface. This means that the flies are just of the bottom (where the current is negligible). If it is drifting at close to the same speed as the current near the surface then this would tell me that the flies are running too high. If it's dragging on the surface, then the line management/mending needs improvement. If it's constantly sinking then something else is wrong (too long, too much weight, etc.).

I shorten up on my leader in shallow water. In that formula, I just change the length of the 6 lb test section. You would want it longer for deeper runs, so it makes sense that you shorten it for shallow water. I usually make it around 7 feet if I know the water is all 2-3 feet everywhere. The shortest I've ever gone is about 6 ft. So I guess there is a foot or two of line between the indicator and fly line. I don't like to have the indicator half way down the leader if the water is shallow. That means it is on a very light piece of line so it can fall off easier and tangle the rig easier. I like to keep it somewhere on the 2-3 feet of heavier line, and just change the length of the line between the indicator and flies. Do I constantly cut it apart and re-tie? No. Only when the water is so drastically different from one spot to the next. I make fine tuning adjustments just by sliding the indicator +/- 1 foot up and down the heavy butt section, or by modifying the weight.

Can you "make do" with slightly long than what the rule of thumb would tell you? Sure! Most fishermen don't cut their whole rig apart if they move downstream and the water looks a little different. Just understand that ideal scenario, and how different leaders help you in different situations. In order for you to see every take, you want the flies as close as possible to being directly under the indicator. There is always a trade off with leaders: Heavier is easier to cast and turn over lots of weight, but lighter gives you better drifts. There are situations where you might want to use big weighted flies along with 2 or 3 BBs on the line (faster, stained, snag filled water). In this case, you'd benefit more from a leader with heavier line extending farther down. There are also cases where you want to use tiny nymphs with little weight (moderate to slow current, clear water, 2-4 ft depth). For this, you benefit more from the lightweight setup that I mentioned.

[Housy Dave]

Anybody want to go to ninigret later???

[sjpresley]

What/where is ninigret?

I know this is primarily a NW CT site I live east of Storrs may be a bit of a haul since I tend to work until nearly 7 pm..

[Housy Dave]

It's a salt pond in southern RI. Maybe an hour and a half from storrs?

[The Fisherman]

Lots of good advice here.

If I may throw my 2c in, there is another scenario that has not been discussed re: the trout striking the nymphs as you begin to load the rod for your cast: the trout are keying on and looking for emerging flies, hence the "wet fly drift" and lifting of the flies prompting strikes.

And, sometimes, the trout just want a little motion in their subsurface action. While I do believe in the general rule of thumb of making a drag-free presentation, I've caught a ton of fish dragging/swinging/jigging/stripping nymphs through the water.

I use a 6' rod on small streams. Instead of casting, I frequently strip line out and let it drift downstream from where I'm standing. I really dislike the Palsa indicators. Give me a good puffball and I'm all set.

sjpresley, if you're catching fish, you're certainly doing something right. :D

[sjpresley]

Well Dave, I was cussin' your name the first time I went out and added shot to my nymph rigs. I was fishing water that was 1-3' deep and I could not keep the thing from snagging every rock and stick in the stream. Of course, it was a quick "on-the-way-to-work-in-the-morning" stop by, so I didn't have time to change too many things (and I had some hellacious tangles that I insisted on untying instead of cutting off)..

The second time out (at lunch the next day) I adjusted how much weight (less) and the position of my SI, much closer to the fly. I still caught on rocks a lot, but I also got to fish a little. In the hour or so I fished I caught 2 trout, both on the drift. Pretty good considering the water I was fishing, shallow, fast, and loud. It was an "exporatory" trip.

Thanks again for all the help guys.

[Housy Dave]

:D

It takes a little getting used to. Every now and then mine tangles up too. Don't stress it. 8)

[sjpresley]

Stopped at the Fenton after work (at the tail end of the rain) this even, caught 3, and lost about a 16-17" rainbow after a 7-8 minute fight. All on the drift. For the Fenton, that is a really nice fish . But I don't know how much of a fight it was, for a while the fish seemed to just try to ignore the fact that it was hooked. After many short runs, and many failed attempt to coax the fish close enough to me to net him, the fly came loose.

Still big fun.


I think I''m starting to figure things out.

Thanks again, Dave.

[The Patriot]

[quote="sjpresley"]Well Dave, I was cussin' your name the first time I went out and added shot to my nymph rigs. quote]



Join the club..... :roll:

I curse Dave everytime I tie a nymph to my line, or read one of his posts..... he's a professional P.I.T.A. :twisted:

[sjpresley]

Maybe I should start a new club....the "Housy Dave is my hero" club (doubt we'll see 3wt quote that one).

Went to the Natchaug this afternoon. Using the HD nymphing technique, caught a couple big, fat 14" rainbows, a nice 13" brown, AND an 11" TIGER trout. First one ever, so that was cool.

Luckily, the guy I was fishing with had one of those crappy disposable cameras with him. So we took a couple pictures before it was released.

[treehooker]

Gentlemen

I wish to state at the outset of this post that I have no ulterior motive in putting it up, I only seek knowledge.

Dave, I do obeisance to you and your obvious experience. This isn't about questioning your technique, its about something much broader, and about my wanting to understand.

I have a question.

SJP, you were catching fish before using lead on the leader, and you are catching fish now that you are using lead on the leader.
Are you finding that you are catching more or larger fish, or getting strikes more frequently or quicker than you did before? In other words, given the water conditions, is this a more productive technique?

O.K....the real motive for my asking this is that I have always been puzzled by the mixed signals published nymphing instructions have given about drag on the fly, and about movement on the fly.
I don't mean fishing a hatch or a "pre-hatch", I'm talking about blind nymphing, which is what this thread concerns.
Fisherman...I know you're gonna say it depends on conditions, at least I think that's what you're going to say. I get that, and I'm posting this as much in response to your comment about "if you're catching fish why are you worried"? as I am about my own puzzlement.
But I'm talking about a general rule here which says that movement on the fly will destroy your chances of fooling trout outright, as opposed to movement on the fly being desirable.

Has anyone had the fish take the nymph on a mend? I have.

So...What does that mean?
Yes, the conventional wisdom is fish the nymph on the bottom.
But, Dave, if you have the shot a foot up the leader, are you floating that on the bottom, really? Are you using weighted flies or what?

Think about the helplessness of a real nymph swept into the water column.

So, what it really all boils down to is: Is there a WRONG way to fish the nymph?
No drag on Mondays?
Bit of a twitch on Tuesdays?
Wednesday calls for the hand twist retrieve?
Lift the rod on Thursday?
Dead on the bottom on Friday?

And, SJP, you are experiencing a great season on blessed water. Keep it up!

[Housy Dave]

Treehooker, Those are all good questions. You should ask as many questions as possible...it's the best way to learn. It's what I've always done, and still do today. I've probably spent my fair share of time looking stupid, or asking simple stupid questions, but who cares? Hopefully it's been ofset by the number of times I've actually been doing the right thing at the right time and ended up catching fish. Whenever I spot someone else that's very good at something I try to find out what they're doing.

There IS a lot of conflicting advice out there, especially when it comes to nymphing. You're not the only one who's noticed. I have a collection of books on nymphing, authored by prominent fishermen such as Larry Tullis, Dave Hughes, and Rick Osthoff. I could pick up any two books and point out plenty of instances where there's conflicting advice...and this is among experts. I find it interesting to read about what each does and why they do what they do. A lot of the differences are in the details, such as rigging, or fly patterns. The basics are more or less consistent.

As I've said, all I can offer anyone is what I do, and why I do it that way. There are so many variations out there.

There are often several techiques and flies that could work at a given time. At the same time, there are specific things that completely destroy your chances of catching fish. So a lot of it IS about being observant, watching what's going on around you, studying the water, etc. You're right, a lot depends on conditions. You don't always need to fish nymphs along the bottom. My personal rule of thumb: In the absense of any noticable feeding activity, the best presentation is perfect dead drift, along the bottom, through likely holding water only. I think this is what you're refering to as blind nymphing?

When it comes to the dead drift vs movement debate, I think it's mostly about what you're trying to imitate. In simple terms: Mayflies, and midges usually require a dead drift. Caddis can be fished either with dead drift, swinging, or with some movement. My opinion is that adding movement only works to your advantage during or before a hatch when the fish are more active.

Another consideration is always the fish itself. Like people, some are more educated than others. Freshly planted hatchery fish often strike poorly presented flies. Heck, they hit metal spinning lures, so what does that tell us? I think this gives people a bit of a false sense of confidence that they're doing the right thing. I think if you develop your techniques such that you can catch the most wily fish in the river you'll be well equiped to handle any situation.

Good fishin' -Dave

[sjpresley]

Treehooker:

Here was my thinking that led to my original "concern". Most of the day I would cast up and across or up stream and let the fly drift, maybe about 30-50% of the time (depending on the situation) I would let the fly swing and/or retrieve it a little way. Over the course of a few days, I caught exactly NO fish on the drift, but about 8-10 on the swing or early stages of retrieve. Assuming that fished properly, I would catch fish in proportion to either the amount of water or time covered by each part of a drift. Since by far most of the water and time were spent (attempting) a (more or less) dead drift), but I was catching no fish then, I assumed I was doing something wrong.

Since paying more attention to the depth of my drift, I don't know that I am catching more fish; especially as conditions (water levels and degree of trout education) are changing as I experiment. But I AM catching fish on the drift now. On Satufday, I hooked 5 fish (one rainbow ran across the pool, lept out of the water at the end of the run, and shook the fly). Three were on the drift, 1 at the beginning of the swing, and 1 (the nicest fish of the day) while I was wading out deeper into the pool and my nymph was just hanging in the water column about 15' down stream from me.. So, at least I am catching fish in different parts of the drift. In theory, that should improve my overall success nymphing.

Now, let me tell ya, if I'm not having any success doing one thing, I'll try just about anything to coax a strike if I think a fish is there, change flies, change depths, add drag to the line on purpose, twitch the line, you name it. I'm just trying to figure out what works for me. But I figured a good place to start was by asking someone that is successful. I have been reading parts of a Larry Tullis book, and it can be frustrating because he doesn't say, "I spent all day on the water and got skunked." He only tells the stories of success.

I am going on the basic principle that there are a lot of ways to catch fish, and some things that really reduce your chances for success. I'm just trying to figure out what I may be doing right, wrong, or things I can change or improve.

For example, deep nymphing.

I was at a sweet looking spot on Sunday, it was fast and shallow at both ends of the pool and nice and deep at the corner. Problem was the surface water didn't really slow down much over the deep part, it just formed an eddy that complicated getting a good drift. I would either snag the bottom before getting to the deepest part of the pool or, snag it at the tail end of the pool. But there was no evidence that I was on or near the bottom when I really wanted/needed to be there. Tullis has a section on deep nymphing that I'll re-read. Any advice on getting a nymph deep (> 7 ft, don't really know how deep it gets) fast and still controlling the drift?

Thanks again to all those guys out there willing to share their experience.

[The Fisherman]

The Zen answer is "There IS a wrong way to fish a nymph: it is the way(s) that produces no fish on that given day."

Dave pretty much sums up my feelings, and I haven't the time to compose a lengthy response right now, but to boil it down: I use weight when the water's high, no weight when it's low; try to fish drag free but don't be afraid to let the nymphs swing; expect strikes when you're loading the rod at the end of the drift as the nymphs rise through the water column; and keep your line in the water as you trudge upstream (you'd be surprised how many stupid trout will strike your flies as the drag through the water.)

I fished the same 40 foot stretch for 15 minutes yesterday (had the wife and kids with me) from shore with split shot and hooked three fish; lost my rig, went split shotless and hooked two more. Go figure.

[The Patriot]

I have a serious question; I am not being difficult, or busting Dave's stones (for a change);). I am seriously trying to learn from this thread, and I have. But there is something in this leader formula that doesn't seem to add up. Please clarify for me, if you can:

Dave wrote:

"A leader I like is to use the first two feet from a shop tapered leader for the butt section, then add 1 foot of 10 or 12 pound test to create some taper, then go directly to 6 lb fluro or lighter the rest of the way. I always keep the indicator on the heavier line to prevent it from coming off."

"I usually make it around 7 feet if I know the water is all 2-3 feet everywhere. The shortest I've ever gone is about 6 ft. So I guess there is a foot or two of line between the indicator and fly line. I don't like to have the indicator half way down the leader if the water is shallow. That means it is on a very light piece of line so it can fall off easier and tangle the rig easier. I like to keep it somewhere on the 2-3 feet of heavier line, and just change the length of the line between the indicator and flies.


So we start with a store bought, knotless tapered leader. We keep the first two feet for the butt section, and tie in another foot of 10lb tippet, giving us a 3 foot butt taper. Yes?

We attach to this the desired length of 6lb (approximately 3X) tippet to place the indicator and split shot the desired distance apart, and the flies at the desired depth. Yes?

And we keep the indicator on the top 3 foot butt taper. Yes?

OK.... now this is where you lose me.... bear with me....

If the water is 2 to 3 feet deep, and the leader is 7 feet long, and the indicator is a foot or two from the line, then that would place the indicator 5 to six feet from the end of the leader.

Isn't this too much line between the indicator and the end of the leader, based upon 2 to 3 feet of water? I would think you would want the indicator 3 to 4.5 feet from the end of the leader, not 5 to 6 feet from the end of the leader. :?:

I played around with a number of leader formulas based on these instructions, and I came up with this:

3 foot butt taper, as Dave instructed;

Two to three and a half feet of 3X/6lb FC tippet;

One foot of 4 or 5X FC tippet;

First fly at the end, split shot at the knot between 3X and 4/5X.

Another foot of tippet from the first fly to the bottom fly, assuming a two fly rig.

Strike indicator 2 feet from the fly line, and 3 to 4.5 feet from the split shot (1.5 times the depth of the water, assuming 2 to 3 feet of water);



3 foot butt, plus 2 foot 3X, equals 5 feet, not 7. No?

3 foot butt, plus 3.5 foot 3X, equals 6.5 feet, not 7. No?



Do you count the entire length of the leader from the fly line to the last fly, or to the split shot? Cuz I've always built my leaders to the shot, and didn't count the tippet to the flies as part of the equation.

If so, if you count the length to include both the flies, then in 2 feet of water the entire length would be 7 feet, as Dave said, and in 3 feet of water the length would be eight and a half feet.

Do you see why I'm confused?

I've always used 9 foot tapered leaders, added a foot of tippet from the end of the leader to the first fly, another foot to the second fly, and put the shot above the tippet knot, and the indicator 1.5 times the estimated water depth up from the shot.

So my entire rig is 11 feet long from fly line to bottom fly, 12 feet if I'm using 3 flies, with my indicator 4.5 feet from my fly line in 3 feet of water, or even 6 feet from my fly line in 2 feet of water.

I ask this because I think this may be one of my biggest problems, using too long a leader. Again, as you guys have said, there is conflicting info on nymphing out there, and I believe this is what I read that I was supposed to do. I am intrigued by this leader adjustment, and think it may be key to improving my nymphing.

So please, don't bust my stones, I am really asking a serious question.....

Help a brother out..... :wink:

TIA,

Jim

[Housy Dave]

Aww geez Jim, now you've got yourself all wrapped around the axel. :D


We're talking about rules of thumb here. So +/- 1 foot is not such a big deal. This could always be compensated for through all the fine tuning adjustments possible. Such as changing the weight, or moving the indicator a foot up or down the line. You will need to fine tune due to small changes in depth and current variations. Certainly not all your drifts will be perfect. Heck, I'm usually dissatisfied with a third to a half of all the ones I make. The important thing is that you see what's going wrong, read what the indicator is doing, and make the right adjustments. Sometimes all that's needed is just to wade to a different position.

Anyways, if I was making a rig to fish a 2-3 foot run with a moderate current, what I would like to see, if I were an absolute perfectionist, is:

2 to 2.5 feet from a shop tapereed leader. The indicator is right at the end of this section (the end farthest from the end of the fly line).

No more than a foot of 10 or 12 lb test (2X), to create a bit of a taper. It doesn't work too well if you try to surgeon's knot 20 or 30 lb mono to 4X tippet...so I add this section.

About 3 feet of 4X flurocarbon.

About 1 foot of 5X. The weight goes at the knot between the 4X and 5X. In this case I would start with 1 BB, and adjust from there. To go lighter I would take off the BB and use 2 size 6 shot. Two size 6 weights are the equivalent of half of one BB weight. If I wanted to go a little heavier I would use two BBs or 1 BB and two 6's (i.e., 1 1/2 BBs).

About 18" of lightweight flurocarbon between the flies. I use no heavier than 5X for this section, and often use 6X or 7X if it's a small nymph. Getting a natural drift on a small fly is tough. The drag the line creates in the water can be significant. Going lighter will get the best possible drift.

Total distance between end of flyline and first fly = approx. 7 feet

Distance between indicator and weight = about four feet (This would satisfy the 1.5 times depth rule of thumb) Bear in mind that the weight will run slightly deeper than both the flies, which is why I like to think of it this way.

I believe my original point in all of this (before getting into leader formulas), was that in shallow riffles there is no need for leaders as long as 9 feet. It is more than the length of line needed to get the flies drifting along the bottom.

[treehooker]

The Zen answer is "There IS a wrong way to fish a nymph: it is the way(s) that produces no fish on that given day."


In the Ninth Casting of the Trout-Tse Ching it is written:

"In the Fifth month, the rain.
After the rain, carp in the river are joyful.
The Superior man tickles their snouts with a feather.
Thus, joy is spread even to the summit of the mountain."

[The Patriot]

Thanks for your help! :D

I seriously believe that my leaders may be a major part of my problem. :?

One minor point:

2X tippet is about 7 pound test, not 10 or 12. Since you're so fond of "rules of thumb", Mr. Engineer, :wink: as a rule of thumb you can subtract the "X" number from 9 and estimate the pound test. 0X = 9lb, 1X = 8lb, 2X = 7lb, 3X = 6lb, 4X = 5lb, 5X = 4lb, 6X = 3lb, etc. etc. etc...... there may be some variance from brand to brand, or material to material, but it's pretty close.... a rule of thumb..... I'm pretty sure my Frog's Hair 5X is 4 pound test.

Don't you think 18 inches is too much between flies? I was always told that you want the second fly closer to the first than that for two reasons; one, so the fish see them both rather quickly and have to make a decision, and two, to keep them both in the strike zone. I realize the extra 6 inches one way or another probably isn't critical, just asking for the sake of discussion......

Also, my next question:

How close can I put the indicator to the fly line? 6 inches, 12 inches, 18 inches, or 2 feet? What's the closest I can get away with?

Thanks again. I'm getting some great ideas I plan to try in NY the next two days. Let's see if it pays off! :roll: :wink:

Jim

P.S. Another question: While I agree that more line than that is not needed to get the flies down enough, what is the down side of having a longer line than that, as long as the distance from the indicator to the weight is correct? In other words, what if using your same leader formula, instead of having 2 or 2.5 feet between the fly line an indicator, you had say 4 or 4.5 feet? The rest of the leader from the flies to the indicator wouldn't change. So what is the drawback? Thanks!

[Todd K]

I once had a fish take both flies on a double rig. They were about a foot apart...maybe drifting the same line.

[The Patriot]

I got a double hook up once too, and I saw Dave get what, about 3 of 'em in one day, last June in the Catskills? That's pretty neat!

[Housy Dave]

I always like to see 2 to 3 feet of space between the indicator and the flyline. There is a trade off:

Having more space allows you to keep more of your flyline off the water. If less flyline is on the water, the drag is reduced. Having more space also allows you to mend the fly line without causing the indicator to move. If the indicator moves, your flys move. You know your good if you can mend the line without making the indicator move. That's what you're going for. It takes a little practice to be able to do this. It's why they make special nymph taper flylines. In those lines the end floats very high for this specific reason. Some people even try to make the indicator hop a little upstream to make sure the flies sink.

The main disadvantage is that with the indicator closer to the center of the leader, you'll tangle up all day. Your chances of tangling go up whenever you try to attach heavier or bulkier objects to increasingly smaller sections of line. My simplistic thinking is that I can't catch fish if the flies aren't in the water. I don't like untangling these things anymore than you do. If you fish 2 or 3 flys, and add more than 1 BB, the problem is exaggerated. In general, the closer the indicator is to the flyline, the easier it is to cast, and the lesser the likelihood of tangles. Also, you might have more problems with some of the foam indicators (getting them to stay on the line) if you keep moving it down.

I've found that the best compromise is about 2-3 feet. With the specific leader design that I stated, this is what works best. If I absolutely had to have the indicator farther down the line, I would probably re-design the leader so heaver line extends farther down. Then it would cast easier and tangle less. If you prefer something else, and you can make it work, then do what works for you. Just understand what all the trade-offs are.

There is one case where I don't adhere to this. When nymphing slow water (usually during a hatch) I have the indicator near the middle of the leader. I'm using small nymphs with little or no weight and I'm using such a small indicator that I can make a normal fly cast. With this rig, there's usually no issues with tangling.

2X frog hair is slightly more than 11 lb test :? You estimate the diameter, not the strength, from the X number (unless you're using vavarias, which is all screwed up).

[The Fisherman]

3weight,

Have you forgotten everything I taught you already? :wink:

Seriously, you're (IMHO) getting way too hung up on leader lengths and what not. Not dismisssing Dave's methods, he obviously has a system that works extremly well and is an experienced, successful nymph fisherman. But I think you should focus on keeping it simple. Remember my rig? A 9' 5wt leader, a foot of 5x, a nymph, then another nymph. Puffball strike indicator adjustable to water depth. Shot if the water's fast/deep. Simple. Go do likewise, get your line in the water, and leave the minutia for later.

More importantly, don't forget that where you nymph is as important as how you nymph (The Fisherman's First Rule of Nymphing: If I were a fish, where would I be hiding in this stretch of water?).

[The Patriot]

Thanks Dave and Steve for all the info! :D I agree with the KISS method, but I am becoming increasingly convinced that I must be doing something wrong, so I am looking at everything. I can read water, I can cast and mend line, so I believe my problem lies in not getting my nymphs in the strike zone. So I've narrowed my focus to leader design and location of indicator.

I found an old 2X spool of Umpqua tippet that was 10lb test after I posted mylast post, but then I was off to NY and couldn't post to correct myself.

The rule of thumb I posted is still valid. :!: There is also another different rule of thumb regarding diameter. :!: But I don't recall what it is..... :?

I looked at most of my other tippet, and the rule of 9 applied. Even with the Umpqua tippet, the rule of 9 applied, until you get to 3X. 4X was 5 pounds, but 3X was 7 or 8 pounds, and 2X was 10 pounds. I don't usually have or use anything larger than 3X, except for saltwater, at which point it's all pounds, not X's. :D

And if you recall, I qualified my remarks by noting that I realize that there is some variation from manufacturer to manufacturer and material to material, but that it was a GENERAL RULE OF THUMB.... feel better now Dave? :P

When I was up in NY, I tried this for a leader. I used Dave's basic idea, but modified it somewhat based on some personal preferences and wanting a leader that would work in a range of conditions, from 2 to 4 feet of water.

I cut the top 3 and a half foot butt off a store bought leader.

I added 18 inches of 3X, and another 18 inches of 4X.

I added another foot of 4X, with my fly at the end and the shot above the knot between 4X and 4X.

7.5 feet from fly line to first fly.

I like 4X better than 5X to the first fly, because I often fish larger stonefly nymphs, like size 6 to 10, and have been mugged by large fish on 5X and been broken off on the take. The fish hit those big stonefly nymphs HARD!!

And I wanted to try to come up with a leader long enough that I wouldn't have to add or remove line every time I moved to deeper water, and still not have the indicator too close to the line. So I compromised between Dave's very short leader, and the Fisherman's full 9 footer.

I liked fishing this, and found it easier to control my flies, and I felt I was more in touch with the rig. I also felt I was getting better drifts, and fewer snags. When I found myself fishing deeper, I added another foot or so of 4X to the midsection, to keep from having the indicator too close to the line.

However, it only translated into 2 small fish, one about 8 or 9 inches, and one about 6 inches. But that is not a good yardstick, because the Catskills are very slow this year, and everyone I spoke to was having difficulty finding and catching fish, particularly in the East Branch, where the fish are primarily wild, and can be very spread out. I also fished three spots on the Beaverkill, but it was slow there too, according to many folks I spoke to. Very few if any bugs, and nothing rising anywhere.

The Delaware system was hit hard by a flood in fall '04, another in spring '05, and a drought in the summer of '05. The consensus among several anglers, one who has fished there for 25 years, was that this year and last year were the slowest in anyone's memory. Personally, I found this year slower than last. I did get two good fish on dries, an 18 incher and a 17 incher, and stuck and lost another good one, but that was it. Last year I caught more fish than that, but I mainly fished the Beaverkill, and this year I focused on the East, which is a much harder river to fish.

Anyway, I think I may be on the right track, and that things are improving.

:)

[Farmy Joe]

Jim, it doesn't sound as if you are keeping it simple lile thefisherman suggested. :roll: But I guess it's good that you're experimenting with some success.

[The Patriot]

Well, on the one hand, I have the Fisherman suggesting that I do the same thing that I've always done, 9 foot leader.... and on the other hand I have Dave suggesting that a shorter leader is better and gives you better line control and keeps you more in touch with your flies.

Since I've always used a 9 foot leader, and know what results that has gotten me, I thought I might try something different and see what happens. If nothing changes, nothing changes.... :)

Add to this the myriad of varying and opposing advice I get about nymphing, and the myriad of varying and opposing articles and books I've read about nymphing, and it's no wonder I'm confused.... :?

Another wrinkle.... when I was fishing in NY with my friend John.... who works for the DEC conducting creel sample and angler counts on the East Branch of the Delaware, builds rods, ties flies, and is an accomplished steel header, fishing indicator rigs....... he showed me a trick of his, which I had never heard of or seen before.

He added a split shot as close as 3 inches below his strike indicator, sometimes further, depending on the depth and speed of the water. He said that this "balances" the indicator, and slows it's drift, so it doesn't pull the nymphs as much. I tried this off and on, and found that it did indeed slow the indicator and balanced it, keeping the flies suspened directly below the indicator, but it didn't translate into any fish more or less. Something to experiment on the heavily stocked waters of the Farmington, and see what happens.

Anyone else ever heard of or tried this?

[Farmy Joe]

Wow, never heard of that before but it certainly sounds interesting. Thanks for sharing. :wink:

[Housy Dave]

Well, the thing with the diameter is actually not a so much a rule of thumb. It is the standard convention that the manufacturers are supposed to follow.

You start with 11 mils (or 11 thousandths of an inch (e.g., 0.011")). If you subtract the X number from 11 mils that gives you the line diameter (in mils). For example, 4X tippett ALWAYS has a diameter of 7 mils. No rules of thumb here, if it's not 7 mils then it isn't 4X. When tying knots, you're most concerned about the diameter of the line. This convention is unique to fly fishing since we are always tying all sorts of knots with different size lines. Spin fishermen mostly go by strength, they don't worry about tying different sections of lines together.

Strength is a different issue and I think the rules of thumb are highly unreliable. So unreliable that they shouldn't even qualify as rules of thumb :D There's a wide variation with line manufacturing processes, line materials, and then on top of that you have all the environmental effects such as light exposure and temperature. The strength rating the manufacturer gives the line is usually based on some statisitcal treatment of test data (such as a B-Basis). For example, they might have to show that 99% of tests measured a strength value above the rating value. So usually on brand new line it will test out stronger than what they say it is. It starts going down once it is exposed to environment effects.

[The Patriot]

Now that you mention the 11 mils rule, I remember that.

As for the rest....

OK Dave, if that makes you happy..... :roll: :P

But 5X tippet is GENERALLY, APPROXIMATELY 4 pound test.... 6X tippett is GENERALLY, APPROXIMATELY 3 pound test, and so on. GENERALLY, APPROXIMATELY..... 8)

[Farmy Joe]

Oh yeah, I remember yawning twice during that conversation... :wink: :P :lol:

[The Fisherman]

Jim,

You certainly don't have to use a 9' leader. If you prefer 7.5', by all means. And if you're short line nymphing, Dave is spot on with his notion that you'll have the benefit of the shorter distance between two points.

We should get together again and do this nymphing thing.

[The Patriot]

Steve,

I'd love to get out fishing with you again. I may fish Tuesday evening, 6 to dark. I'm also off all day Wed and Thursday this week, and off this weekend, but have a family obligation on Saturday. I'm torn between the Farmington and the Salt.

Next week I'm off Thurs and Friday. And I'll most likely fish Wednesday evening 6 to dark. Again, torn between Farmington and Salt.....

Lemme know if one of those windows looks doable for you.

Jim

[SloNDeep]

You guys are kinda rough on Housy Dave :shock:

Couple things about indicator nymphing (none of this is secret stuff, you will find this in nearly every book written on nymphing). The trick is to keep these things in mind while you're fishing.

If people are only getting fish on the swing, it often means they are missing hits during the drift. When feeding fish have a fly come to them, the take (and subsequent release of the fly) is pretty quick. If the line (tippet) between your indicator and the fly is not tight you will easily miss strikes. A little weight helps this a lot (I usually go 6-10 inches from the fly); Faster water closer, slower water farther.

The Tullis book you mention is awesome, but I feel it is geared toward the experienced nympher. Dave Hughes and Tom Rosenbauer write books geared toward the beginner nympher that mght be more useful.

Dead drift is different when nymphing than when fishing dries. The current at the bottom is quite a bit slower than at the top (more obvious in faster water), so a dead drift is occuring only when your indicator appears to be dragging. Your indicator should usually look like it is going slower than the bubbles; This indicates that your fly is deep.

You dont want your fly at the bottom; you want it NEAR the bottom. If you are hanging up a lot you will make the shop owners happy; you wont catch more fish.

Most importantly: Be confident, you are fishing where you expect fish to be feeding. If your indicator stalls, twitches, jumps upstream, or looks wierd, give the fly a quick strike, just enough to move the indicator 6-8 inches is typically sufficient. If there is no fish, throw a quick mend toward the indicator and continue the drift

Thats my 2c, hope it helps

[The Fisherman]

Not at all. Dave's a terrific nympher. :D

[The Patriot]

"You guys are kinda rough on Housy Dave"


If you knew him personally, you wouldn't say that..... :P

Not only is he a fantastic nymph fisherman, (I still don't believe he's human), he's a sarcastic little PITA, who deserves everything he gets, and GIVES every bit as good as he gets.....

:wink:

Love ya like a brother Dave..... :D