Oddball flies/methods for specific hatches

[The Fisherman]

OK, since we're all suffering from cabin fever and need some theoretical fishing time to occupy us, here's another good one to throw out to the group:

What oddball fly, unorthodox pattern, unconventional method, etc., do you use for a specific hatch?

Here's an example from my bag o' tricks: For tiny BWOs, I have two go-to flies if the fish are refusing all else. The first is a tiny (sz 26) BWO wet fly that I grease up and fish on the surface as a dry. The other is a Ballbuster (basically a single thread tail, thread body, and tiny foam tube wing) sz 22-26 that I fish in the film, greasing only the tube wings. These are both all or nothing patterns; if the fish don't like them, I go sans hookup. If they dig them, it can be a rise on every cast. (We like when that happens).

Another mis-match the hatch I use is a W/S Caddis pupa sz 22 for midge hatches.

Lastly, if there are duns (whatever fly) on the surface and the trout are refusing my hatch match, I'll purposefully skate and drag the fly. Against the rules, but it sometimes triggers explosive strikes.

[The Patriot]

I think my fly selection is pretty "conventional", and I can't think of any "oddball" patterns that I use. I stick to the standard fare of nymphs, wets, emergers, usuals, comparadun/sparkle comparaduns, parachutes, spinners. I find I almost never use tradional Catskill patterns. I think I've used them a half dozen times, on the Beaverkill, during March Brown, Brown Drake, or Green Drake hatches. Comparaduns and Parachutes are my favorite, are just as effective if not moreso, and don't twist my leader. I've also used some thorax patterns with some success, particularly during Hendricksons or Isonychia.

As for unusual methods.... although this is not for any one specific hatch, it can be used on any hatch...... I will sometimes "fish the lifecycle". I tie an appropriate dry fly to the end of my tippet, something that will float well...... then a three foot dropper to which I attach an appropriate bead head nymph...... to which I attach an 18 inch dropper.... to which I attach a soft hackle, or wet fly.

The dry imitates the adult.... the nymph imitates.... well, the nymph of course.... and the wet/soft hackle imitates the nymph/transitional emerger swimming to the surface. This can be particularly effective with species like Epeorus Pleuralis (Quill Gordon) or it's cousin Epeorus Vitreous (aka Vitreous, or Pale Evening Dun). Epeorus species emerge on the bottom and swim to the surface with their wings awash. The soft hackle is an excellent imitation for this purpose.

This can also be effective for Isonychia, which are also strong and active swimmers. Some Baetis nymphs are also good swimmers, but I have yet to find soft hackles tied that small, and I unfortunately don't tie. Wet flies could work for this, and tiny BWO wets, like the ones Steve likes, could be used.

Fishing 3 flies like that can be a pain. You want a calm day, a sturdy 5 or even a 6 weight rod with a weight forward line, and have to open your loops. Distance casting is not advised.

I have also done this with just the bead head and soft hackle/wet fly, if I don't see rising fish or duns, but am expecting a hatch... but I skip the indicator and split shot, because I want the flies to swing, I'm not fishing as deep, and I wanna be ready to change over when the duns start to show and the fish start to rise..... and they WILL RISE.... (Dave) .... any minute now.... :p ;) :D

[Jon]

Truth be told I don't experiment enough. The main reason is that I learnt to fish in Scotland for wild browns "loch style" with traditional wet flies. You have a box of them and, most of the time, most of the patterns work: Bloody Butcher, Kingfisher Butcher, Bibio, Kate McLaren, Soldier Palmer, Greenwells Glory. Wonderful names! But not much reason to experiment.

The second reason is something about not wasting time changing things when that next cast will produce a fish. I think this is plain wrong, but it stuck with me, perhaps from my days salmon fishing. Women are said to be 'better' salmon anglers as, when the man is on the bank mulling over this fly or that, the lady will be casting and covering fish. I think there's something to it. But I also think that fishing for both salmon and trout can lead to bad habits in both sports.

I have flies that I try if all else fails. I mentioned the SJ worm, great in colored water or right after a rise in water height. I've also found my old buzzers work - basically epoxy midge pupa in size 16. I like spiders too - the black spider is a wonderfully versatile wet fly. Patridge and Yellow and Orange are great flies. Sure they would fish well hung up like nymphs. Must give that a try.

Jon

[Farmy Joe]

blahblahblah blahblah blahblahblahblah, bubablahba blah blah blah...This can also be effective for Isonychia, which are also strong and active swimmers.

To piggy back on that...;) I tie a blended iso compara/sparkle dun and drop a zug bug off the bend of the hook whenever the bicolors are out.

Once on an overcast summer afternoon, I was fishing with Flyrodder in New Hartford. We both decided to try throwing ant patterns on 8x. Nothing on that stream proved to be even remotely interested in our offerings that day.

So even though the Iso's hadn't yet made their emergence at that point in the day, I changed flies and pretty much started picking those brownies off at will using that furry combo meal.

[pvansch1]

Flymph fished in the film or sub surface.
Toss it up and across, let it dead drift, then at the end of the drift let rise, move the rod tip up stream a foot or two and drop back down. Killer tactic it the lower TMA.

[DA]

Flymph fished in the film or sub surface.
Toss it up and across, let it dead drift, then at the end of the drift let rise, move the rod tip up stream a foot or two and drop back down. Killer tactic it the lower TMA.


Here's a Flymph tutorial showing how to tie the pattern using CDC and Partridge feathers:

http://www.flyguysoutfitting.com/flymphsbs.html

[dudley]

When fishing ants on a quiet pool I like to keep my line as tight as possible
Then, when you bang the rod butt with your hand it causes just enough vibration in the fly that it sends out little concentric circles just like a struggling ant.
Killer
;)

[The Patriot]

Nice, I like that alot..... ;)

[Farmy Joe]

Then, when you bang the rod butt with your hand it causes just enough vibration in the fly that it sends out little concentric circles just like a struggling ant.
Killer
;)
Very interesting. Never even thought to try that.;)

[Farmy Joe]

I'm hoping Fishbag chimes in on this with his patened bio-nymph® strategy.:D

[Kype]

There was a time when I actually had fly fishing figured out or so I thought; then I met Steve Day. Steve is, in my opinion one of the most interesting anglers I have ever met. He is a Maine angler who fishes the great rivers of that state with incredible success. His approach to fishing is much more direct than most anglers. Due to the poor hatches on many big Maine Rivers and their sheer size, rapid flow rate and depth he has abandoned the fly line completely. Steve fishes flies much the same as we all do but Steve puts them where they work on his water, the bottom. Steve uses the noodle rod and techniques of many skilled Great Lakes steelheader's. I have some wonderful fish taxidermy but when I saw the size and number of fish in Steve's den I was taken back. Sure, many were Lake Ontario fish but in addition there were some exceptional fish from Maine. One 30 + inch hook bill 12 lb brown trout caught my eye. I asked him to tell the story of that big boys capture. I was stunned to find out he caught it in a river on a #14 Hares Ear nymph using his noodle rod techniques.
I fished the Kennebec River with him that day using conventional fly gear. The section of the Kennebec we fished that day was as sterile a piece of water as I have ever seen. As far as fly water goes this sucked! It is beautiful looking water but I could count the number of aquatic insects I saw on one hand. It was the second week of September. If a river doesn't have flies the second week of September something is wrong. I turned over rocks and found nothing worth mentioning. I did catch a couple of trout and a LL salmon but Steve showed me 18 rainbow trout several of which were
17" – 18". Steve told me it was not a good day on the Kennebec.
I had my ass handed to me.

All of Steve's fish were caught on feathered jigs, flies and some on plastic using light leader and mostly #14 hooks. In order to get my gear down or attract fish I was forced to fish Hi D sink tip line, weighted flies on tippets heavier than what Steve was using and the best strike producing fly I had ended up being a #4 Atlantic salmon Spay fly I have found effective for larger trout from time to time.

Since that day I have begun to question the use of our heavy fly gear and our attempts to force the fly rod to perform a task it wasn't originally designed to do.
I ask you; why do we fish weighted lines, flies, split shot using the chuck and duck approach to fishing deep when our flies can be presented better with lighter leader with out the fly line using Steve's approach?

There is no better way to fishing the surface or near surface with flies than with the fly rod. I am now convinced that when it comes to heavy deep river flows the fly rod is lacking. It is a poor tool for the job.

Is it fly fishing when we shed ourselves from the limitations created by the fly line yet continue to use flies?

Could it be that the fly fishing industry has played a trick on us by selling and promoting supposed bottom fishing gear and techniques? Have we been hoodwinked?:coffee:

Bobby

[The Patriot]

No...

We don't all live in Maine, and most of the rivers we fish are not that deep, fast, or devoid of biomass.... so the flyrod is more than adequate to deliver our imitations anywhere in the water column, including on the bottom.....

And besides, it's not always about the results, it's about the challenge...

It's not about how many fish I catch.... it's about how I catch many fish...

If fish catching efficiency is our primary concern, then I suggest we look to dynamite, or nets, or trot lines. ;)

To each his own...

Tight Lines :)

Jim

[Kype]

Jim

I agree with your assessment of Connecticut Rivers. I also agree that it is how we do our fishing that is important and I have begun to look at our use of weight in flies and sinking lines, the chuck and duck and ask myself is this as sporting as what Steve is doing. Granted much of my fishing is not in Conn. and our northern rivers are far different, yet I thought I would ask you folks view on this. A great deal of fishing time is lost here by remaining inflexible and not adjusting to the river conditions and I have been missing out on months of cold high water fishing. FF in the big rivers doesn't turn on until the first week of June and it is done by mid October at best. Mid July through August it is too hot to fish. A noodle rod would extend the season by months.
As you might guess I am wrestling with this issue against my near religious fly fishing upbringing.
St Croix has a nice 10.5 ft noodle rod for 2 lb – 6 lb line!

So, am I to understand that fly fishing MUST include the line?:(

Bobby

[The Patriot]

Bobby,

I don't think the fly line defines whether or not one is "fly fishing". But I don't imagine one can fly cast monofilament....

Doesn't using a noodle rod and monofilament require the use of a spinning reel?

I think it is the reel and the method of casting that disqualifies this as true fly fishing in the traditional sense. I know of guys who use bait on flyrods, and flies on spinning rods..... I don't know that either truly qualifies as flyfishing, but of the two, I would say that the bait on the flyrod most closely approximates flyfishing, because it uses a fly rod, fly reel, and fly line, even though it is not using an artificial fly.

I think it's more about the casting, and how the fly, lure, or bait is delievered, and how the fish and line is retrieved.

I wouldn't get too hung up on exactly what one calls any one method. As long as one is having a good time, that's all that counts! I'm no fly fishing snob.... ;) :) But for myself, I rarely use anything but traditional fly tackle, except for surf fishing, or boat fishing. And even then, I prefer to use my fly gear.

[Kype]

Jim

I don’t own any spinning gear other than what was left of my dad’s stuff he fished with in the early 1960’s. I have been a fly tier since I was 12 years old. I have fly fished exclusively for years (47) to be exact, but confronted with big, deep, swift rivers with short hatch seasons coupled with all the weight issues I discussed; I am taking a fresh look at things. Monsters trout we rarely get a chance to show a fly to can be caught, on flies. Steve proves it on a regular basis. I have to give this a try.

Bobby

[Flyone73]

Kype. I know up in your neck of the woods, alot of folks use mono on the flyrod. Just spool it up on your fly reel. You can feel every pebble you touch. Especially for the steelhead run. That is the first place I've seen that done. Then I know it is big in the GL region also. It's a lot esier to get mono down than a fly line. Sometimes you have to use unorthodox techniques to get to the fish.

[Rich Strolis]

Running line bottom bouncing like Flyone stated can achieve a very similar biproduct. Try it and see.

[The Patriot]

Kype,

So then I'm confused.... can you describe the outfit you would use for this type of fishing, and how it would be used? Would you use a noodle rod with a fly reel spooled with mono? How would you cast your fly and split shot?

[Adam Taylor]

I am imagining some of the setups seen on the Salmon River in New York.

Fly reel spooled with Mono...casting almost chuck and duck style.

Lots of people do it....

[FK]

Kype,

Thank you for the very interesting post. I enjoy learning new techniques and this is something I have read about, but not experemented with on our rivers.

It is most likely not acceptable in the "fly fishing only" waters however, it could be an early season fish catching idea when the water is high and dirty.

Thanks again,

Regards,
FK

[The Fisherman]

In CT, there is a specific definition as for what "fly fishing" is. Consult the Book of DEP for details.

[Flyone73]

If you use a running line like WNP suggested I think you can get away with it. Thats what the folks on the Salmon do.

[steve B]

kype,
I have used that method on a 10' 5 wt. fly rod during the winter for a long time. It is the same exact rig i use on salmon river just scaled down from 7 - 8 wt. It is a very good way to get the fly down to bottom and keep it there. I do find it odd that you used the Kenebec and unfirtile in the same sentence. Maybe something has changed, but in the early mid 80's I fished that water from east outlet down to Solon dam and below. It had a lot of bugs and was not all that hard to fish with conventional tackle but that was 25 years ago and thing do change. Regardless colod high water the chuck & duck technique work wonders.

Steve

[The Patriot]

Can somebody please explain this method to me in some more detail? I take a flyrod and fly reel... spool up the reel with mono.... how much, what size?...... how do I then cast this mono with a fly rod? If I strip line off the reel, won't it get tangled? I'm confused....:(

[Flyone73]

Lots and lots of weight. Strip off as much line as you are going to throw. Leave about a rods length out of the tip or a little less. And just lob the weights. The weights are whats casting your line, unlike a traditional set up where your line does the casting. Thats the real chuck and duck. Works well but I'm not a big fan. I still use the traditional line.

[steve B]

Patriot,
How I set it up is. I use a .030 120 foot running line ( same type used with shooting head) attached to backing. I tie on a 9 foot piece of level 4x leader, from this I tie on a 3 foot piece of 5x tippet with a 6 to 8 inc dropper. To the dropper I put 2 to 4 BB sized split shot and the tag is attched 1 or 2 nymphs. To cast this lin you bring all but 1 foot of running line in the take the rod and sort of chuck the weight out up stream. ( not very artistic no pretty loop or false cast ) once the weight hit the bottom follow it down stream with a tight line the small running line leader put far less drag on the flies so they drif vey natrually along the bottom. The one draw back with this is you loose a good bit of split shot doing it. if it get stuck give it a good pull the shot will slip off the line and you will only need to replace shot. once you find bottom you can take some shot off or add to get better drift. While not pure flyfishing it is effective. Also I would stay away from just plane mono as it can tend to dig into is self and if you do hook a good fish and it runs you could loose it. I have also heard a couple of guys in NY say it can mess up a fly reel arbor also.

Steve

[Kype]

Now we are getting to it!
I fished the Ontario tributaries for the first time this past December. I have only recently discontinued Atlantic salmon fishing. A friend and past customer once told me: "The only thing salmon fishermen wouldn't do for the fish was take their hook out of the water and leave them alone." I haven't been able to justify fishing for salmon ever since! I took up striped bass fly fishing to ease the pain but I am a river fisherman so I hooked up with Steve and went out there after looking down my nose at all this type of fishing for years. I was foolish not to have gotten into it years ago but there are so many applications of the techniques used by steelheaders we can apply to trout fishing in my area it would be ignorant of my to not lighten up a bit and learn. I am delighted to hear others use these techniques and I will get in touch via PM. Thanks a bunch!:)

Bobby

[The Patriot]

Hmmmm..... sounds interesting... I can see why it would be effective in high, fast water, where a conventional fly fishing set up is more limited and less effective... but....

Why not just make your leader really, really long.... like 15 feet.... and stick with traditional fly line? You can still put as much split shot on as you want, and with a 15 foot leader and plenty of weight, I would think you could still get to the bottom of the fastest, deepest run, no?

Interesting discussion.... talk about oddball methods ;) :D

Fishbag likes to use his aforementioned (by Farmy Joe) patented BIONIMF.... BIO Non Imitation Mealworm Fly.... ;) That's right, just a plain old Mealworm on a hook that he lobs out with his flyrod.....:rolleyes:

But we love him anyway.... :D

[steve B]

Patriot,
I have tried this with a regular fly line and a long leader 15-18' it just did not work as well and I would have prefered to fish it that way. it may in close say 15 to 20 feet but beyaond that the fly line will drag were the running line does not.The biggest advantage, is the length you can actually throw the fly & weight. with the heavier 7 -8 wt. rod I can toss this rig almost as far as I can cast my spey with much less effort. Like I said above it is not pure fly fishing but is does work.

Steve

[Gary]

One other advantage is the thin diameter of the running line cuts through the water better than a traditional floating line when fighting fish. Less drag allows you to use lighter tippets for better presentation.

Kype I fished the Kennebec in Bingham a few years back in July. Fish were rising in the Gaddabout Gaddis pool every day from 3:30 till dark. I never pricked a fish on a dry in 4 days. Those fish were tough. If your friend Steve was getting that many wild rainbows in that stretch I'm impressed.

I got one fish on a thunder creek streamer and one on a wooly bugger. Both took me into my backing.

[Kype]

Gary

It was the Bingham section which I was fishing. It is a difficult piece of water for fly fishermen. At first look you think it is going to be great fishing but the flow is so fast, deep, and sterile and it lacks good structure. Fish want to hug the bottom. Here and there with a good hatch a few fish show but it is not a consistent river for fly guys to enjoy. It is however loaded with fish. Mutch of the feed comes from small smelts sucked from the bottom of lake at the dam.
No lie, no leg pulling Steve does hammer the fish there and instead of taking the time to learn how to do what he is doing many of the local fly guys hate him! Fools!
I had to see it for my self and I am glad I did. That day I had 7 pulls to my flies and landed 3 fish. Like I said I had my ass handed to me and it was poor fishing. Here is a link to a half dozen photo’s of fish caught in the Bingham section and released by Steve and a picture of him with a nice rainbow. He has e-mailed me an over whelming number of fish pictures. It is staggering.

http://www.neoutdoorvoice.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1491

P.S. Steve is the 2007 Maine record rainbow trout holder.

[Gary]

Thanks for sharing those photos. Those are some great fish. We fished in the early AM before the water came up and after 4PM when it dropped again. I can't remember the CFS but we were able cross and move around ok at those times. It is not a bad ride and I hope to give it another shot soon. We stayed in the Bingham Hotel or Motel right across the street and could walk to a lot of the places we fished. What are the prefered flows for wading?