Leaders and tippets??

[Massteach]

Hi Guys,
Can someone help me out with a long standing question? I'm a salt water fly fisherman mainly but I've been doing more and more trout fishing over the last year...and plan to trout fish all this summer.

My question is about leaders and tippets, if I'm using a tapered 4x leader, when, if ever, would I tie a tippet onto that leader? Isn't the leader tapered to not need a tippet?
Thanks,
Zach

[pvansch1]

Yes it is, take a new leader, start at the tip of the tippet end and run your fingers down it until you feel it getting fat, depending on the leader length anywhere from 1-3 feet. You start adding tippet once you get close to it's the thickening spot, or if you need to go to light tippet i.e. 4x add 18" of 6x to fish a #18 fly etc.

[paul young]

or, if you're on the Farmington after about June 1, you start with a 9' tapered 5x leader and knot on 4' of 7x tippet!

i'm not joking! this works great for the size drys we are usually using in the summer.-paul

[Kype]

Massteach


You might find that making your own leaders using the formulas found in McClain’s Encyclopedia useful. When making leaders these formulas can be changed a bit to suit your outfit, fly and water condition needs. I fish a great deal of flat water which, in daylight hours, requires long leaders and often #12 & #10 flies which generally need #5 X tippets. Using McClain’s basic formulas and playing with them I have been able to tune my rods. One in particular doesn’t dampen as I would like but has other desirable qualities. I could not stand the appearance of the loop it made. I went to work on the leader and was able to make subtle changes that improved the casting and fly delivery of the rod. There is a lot to leaders used in trout fishing perhaps more so than in other forms of fly fishing.
The investment in leader material may pinch a bit when you start but it has been cost saving over the years for me and has improved my casting and fishing. It is rewarding to build your own leaders and the results can be a dramatic improvement in your casting and fishing.

I have used Maxima Chameleon & Maxima Ultra Green mono, and now Segar fluorocarbon, each has its place and use. If I had to choose just one to begin with it would be Ultra Green.

Tight Lines!

Bobby

[Massteach]

Hi Guys,
Thanks for all the replies. I've attempted to tie some tippets to my leaders but have had serious knot problems...what know are you guys using?
Thanks,
Zach

[Capt Bob]

To answer your original question, you will need to rebuild the tippett periodically especially if you change flies quite a bit or get wind knots. I use a blood knot the majority of time when I add tippett materil. When it becomes time to drop down to 7X, 8X or 9X, I go to a surgeons knot as it tis easier to tie with the ultra fine X's.

[WhipFish]

I use either the double uni-knot or the surgeon's. 90% of the time, it's the double uni. It takes a bit longer to tie but it holds at 95% line strength and once you get use to it, it's easy.

Just to add a side note, even with brand new 9' leaders it's smart to add 3 feet of tippet because it keeps the original leader at close to it's starting length. When you've used everything added, you only lose a couple of inches of the original in order to add another three feet. It's more cost effective with leaders being $4 each or three for$10-12. Food for thought. And a 12 foot leader will never hurt you on the Farm. Maybe on a small stream, but not on bigger water.

Whip

[The Fisherman]

MassTeach,

I tie tippet to leader with a triple surgeon's knot. I never tie two sections that are greater than two numbers apart, i.e. 5X tied to 7X yes, 4x tied to 7X no. That's just a personal preference.

It goes without saying, but I'll do it anyway: always test the integrity of your knots before you fish.

[WhipFish]

And to add to what Fisherman was saying...and I'm sure you know this but it is for others too who might not...make sure your line is wet when you pull the knots snug. Less friction equals less chance of damage to the line.

[Massteach]

Hi Guys,
Thanks for all the help. In the past I've attempted to use Double surgeons knots which didn't work out so well...been practicing with the triple surgeon's knot and was able to tie some practice leaders to tippets with no problems.
thanks,
Zach

[overmywaders]

MT,

If you are accustomed to the heavier leaders of saltwater fishing, you may also need to look at the tip-of-line to butt-of-leader transition. Often, in line sizes below six, the butt of the leader can overpower the tip of the line - making a hinge point and detracting from a good cast.

You might try this simple test:
1/ connect leader to line
2/ grasp leader with one hand, six inches from the join, and line with the other at the same distance
3/ move your hands together, forming an arch in the line

If the arch is perfectly uniform, the transition is excellent; otherwise, use a smaller or larger mono leader butt, until line and leader agree.

[The Patriot]

First, I agree with Whipfish, The Fisherman, Capt. Bob and many others.

For dry fly fishing, I start with a 9 foot 3x or 4x leader (4x more often than 3x), and add 18 inches to 3 feet of 5x or 6x tippet.

(Technically speaking, you can go down as much as 3 sizes, say from 2 to 5 or from 3 to 6... and Dave at Classic and Custom actually recommended doing so one time when I was buying leaders... but like The Fisherman, I prefer to go one or two sizes down... )

Then I tie my fly on. If I'm using 5x, and getting refusals or need a finer tippet, I'll add another foot or two of 6x to that. When I use up that tippet, I just tie on more. Like Whip said, your leaders last longer and maintain the proper taper.

Later in the season, I might go to a 5x or even a 6x leader, and add tippet from there.


Second, how is it that triple surgeons knots work for you, but not a double? I only use double, I think triple is overkill. In fact, I attended a clinic with Ed Mitchell on saltwater fly fishing at Upcountry, and in discussing clinch knots, Ed suggested that the more twists you put in a clinch knot (over 4 or 5) the weaker the knot, especially with heavier material.

I think a double surgeons knot is probably stronger than a triple surgeons knot. It's a very simple and effective knot and I don't see any advantage to a third turn. (Unless your OCD, like Steve... ;) :p :D)

Another option is to go loop to loop. But I don't see the advantage to that for trout fishing myself. With loops, I only use surgeons loops.

Clinch knots, surgeons knots, and surgeons loops are the only three knots I use. I haven't ever had a problem with any knots. (Which is not to say I've never broken one, but that can happen with any knot if it's not tied correctly, or the material is compromised in some way, etc.... )

[Massteach]

I must confess that my double surgeon's knot failure was most likely due to operator error rather than knots not being strong enough.

So for "typical" dry and nymph fishing with #14-24 hooks, do you recommend starting with say a 4x 9' tapered leader and then adding sections of 5x-7x depending on the fly size?
Thanks,
Zach

[Massteach]

"For dry fly fishing, I start with a 9 foot 3x or 4x leader (4x more often than 3x), and add 18 inches to 3 feet of 5x or 6x tippet. "

Patriot, thanks, you had already answered my question in your post.

[The Patriot]

For nymphing, I start with a heavier leader, 1x to 3x, and maybe shorter, like 7 and a half feet. (Or buy a 9 foot 2x or 3x leader, and cut the last 2 feet or so.)

Then I tie in about 2 to 3 feet of 3x flourocarbon. To the 3x flourocarbon, I tie about 18 inches of 4x flourocarbon (unless I'm fishing a big stonefly nymph, in which case I continue with 3x). My first fly goes at the end, my split shot goes at the knot for the last section, and my indicator goes above the first knot from leader to 3X flouro.

I use two different rods, reels, and lines for nymphing and dries.

If I have my dry fly rod and want to switch to nymphs, then I cut off my mono tippet, and add flourocarbon as above. If my dry fly leader is 4x, then the smallest flouro I use is 4x, instead of 3x.

[overmywaders]

MT,

You knot problem may be a miscommunication. The true "Surgeon's Knot" is a square knot with an initial double-throw (see Surgeon's Knot (http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/surgeon's+knot)

Boy Scout manuals and others teach the above as the "Surgeon's Knot" (which it is). Fishermen, OTOH, use the Double Water Knot and call it the Surgeon's knot (see Double Water Knot, a.k.a., Surgeon's knot (http://www.killroys.com/knots/surgeon.htm)

So, were you tying a Surgeon's Knot - as a surgeon would - rather than the Double Water Knot (a.k.a., Surgeon's Knot, Double Surgeon's Knot)? That might be your problem.

[DA]

...The drawback to this method is that every time you tie on a fly, you "Eat up" some of the leader (but the Davy knot minimizes this)...

Here's a video showing how to tie the Davy knot.

http://www.itinerantangler.com/podcasts/2006/02/video_archive_how_to_tie_the_d.html

[overmywaders]

Well, "there is nothing new under the sun".

What is called the "Davy Knot" has been around as the Cleave or Cleave Figure Eight Knot and can be tied as follows, which I find easier, cause I am all thumbs:
************
Cleave Knot
http://eis.bris.ac.uk/~cckhrb/cleave-knot.gif
Thread the tippet through the hook eye, and form an overhand knot. Then twist the hook through 180° anti-clockwise, forming a second loop. Pass the end through the second loop. Moisten and tighten the knot.
Also known as the Cleave Figure of Eight Knot.
************
It is a great knot, I love it; but for Up/Down Eyed dries I use the Turle because it keeps the leader straight in line with the fly. YMMV

[Gary]

For dry fly fishing buy one furled leader and attach a 4 or 5 ft piece of the size tippet you need to float the fly with the best presentation. I get a whole season out of 1 furled leader.

[Massteach]

So by furled leader you mean a tapered leader?
thanks.

[The Fisherman]

No. Yes. A furled leader is a woven/braided leader made of many smaller fibers that is tapered; that is, it has a butt section and then gradually tapers down to a more tippet-like section. It's how they made tapered leaders in the old days. If you do a google search, you can see how they're made; not hard to do once you build a jig.

[overmywaders]

MT,

The history of fly fishing, and fly fishing tackle, is fascinating, at least to me. Charles Cotton wrote in 1653 -- "He who cannot kill a trout of twenty inches with two [hairs from a horse's tail], deserves not the name of angler."

According a 20" brown trout the usual estimated weight of 3 pounds 7 ounces and the two hair leader a generous 2.5 lb. test, add to that the lack of a reel (only a fifteen foot rod and fifteen feet of line), and I know I could not land that fish.

Horse hair (the best was the tail hair of a white mare) leaders were replaced by silkworm gut (the "gut' is literally drawn from the "worm" with a needle and solidifies as it hits the air). Since eighteen inches was about the longest you could hope for in a piece of gut, leaders were made of many short pieces tied together in descending thickness. The best gut came from Spain and was cared for well by the fisherman - it could be expensive and difficult to replace, especially in wartime. After WWII, Nylon as a monofilament became popular as a leader material, however it was a few years before it was extruded as a single tapered leader rather than knotted from short sections, like gut.

The transparency, or translucency, of leaders was always considered essential to successful fishing until very recently. Leaders were sometimes died in camouflage colors (misty blue, light green, etc.) to hide them. However, with the recent advent of braided and furled leaders, leaders are effectively just an extension of the line and the tippet is the only concern. (Modern plastic - PVC - floating fly lines cannot be produced in diameters much under .034". Silk fly lines were never taken below .022" at the tip because of strength issues - .022" diameter braided silk tested at 14# test.)

If we ever think that we are tremendously skilled fishermen for landing a two pound trout on a 5X tippet, a look at the old standards will humble us. In 1949, the National Assoc. of Angling and Casting Clubs set a minimum breaking strength for 5X Nylon or gut at 1/2lb -- that same 5X is 5lb test today!

[Massteach]

Hi Reed,
Thanks for the response, I was never sure where the "gut" came from in those early fly fishing days.
Take care,
Zach