Vermont May Close Fish Hatcheries

[ge60355]

:mad:Proposal in VT can close all VT Fish Hatcheries as part of budget cuts:

• Mothball all state fish hatcheries: Save $1.12 million.

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/article/20090325/NEWS03/90325004

[Freeloader]

That is a sad statement but i doubt it will happen. There are too many businesses who depend on the fisheries and too many vermonters who fish. although a reduction or huge cuts could be a problem. if vermont were to drop its fisheries completely it would look pretty bad. There would hardly be any trout in the rivers. I live here and its beautiful but for a state that prides it self in its outdoors I feel as though they do not do enough to maintain there fish populations. I'd like to hear what Kype has to say about this one. I'm sure he read the article.

[Kype]

Freeloader

Yes, I did read the article. I have mixed feelings about it. I am an advocate for wild fish. I have encouraged wild trout management for some time and if Vermont dedicated itself to wild trout management we could have more of it. The problem with it is the winter and summer stress on our rivers. We have excellent gravels in most all our rivers and streams. There is no shortage of natural reproduction but it is survival that is the limiting factor. Wild trout management would mean a serious reduction in the catch rate. Compared to what you have in Connecticut we are already behind as there isn’t the insect feed base to support the head of trout in rivers comparable in size to the Housatonic or Farmington. That is why when you view pictures of Vermont river fish they are thin in comparison to Connecticut trout.

(A 24 inch wild male rainbow I caught in 2007 and kept for a mount was slightly over 4 lbs. This was an old, old fish and I doubt he would have been of any value to spawning the next season so I do not feel a twinge of guilt for keeping him. I think a trout this length from the Housatonic I knew would have been close to 6 lbs +.)

Personally I do not have a problem with closing down some of the hatcheries so long as we continue the stocking of Lake Champlain. The Fed’s might be able to handle the LLS and lake trout stocking and leave Vermont to continue the hatchery work on sturgeon. As far as our rivers and streams are concerned I see an opportunity to reduce bag limits and broaden our wild trout management. One thing is for sure, Vermont F&W Department biologists have been telling me for years that hatchery trout do not survive here. Electro fishing stocked streams in the fall has confirmed that hatchery fish do not make it. Hence all we are doing with hatchery fish is feeding the rods and enabling a few guys to charge outrageous fees to out of state anglers simply to take them fishing. What is often the case is they are taken to fish stocked areas so the catch rate will be tolerable for an angler paying $350+ for a boat ride. Expectation on catch rate is often measured against what a guy can do at home and even at its best Vermont Rivers come up short when compared to the Housatonic I knew or the Farmington River.

As a local angler I welcome the opportunity to stop some of the waste on hatchery put and take fish and begin a serious plan to protect and enhance the river habitat to support wild trout.

On another note trout fishing as much as I love it is only a part of the picture. We have all kinds of wild non salmonid fishing in Vermont. There is excellent smallmouth bass, pike, large mouth bass, and an assortment of wild reproducing pan fish. I dare say that these species carry the ball and the anglers who fish for bass etc. are paying the bill for the trout guys and in return really don’t get much for their money in comparison.

My biggest concern is an increase on my already outrageous property and earnings taxes. If Douglas wants to cut expenses I welcome the opportunity to push for wild trout management. I am sure others see it differently but Freeloader that is my take on it.:coffee:

Bobby

[Don]

Very interesting, Bobby. I hope that the fisheries people are able to change laws in a way that effectively reduces the harvesting of fish. It sure would be great to see wild fish proliferate. If the stocking is ended, I hope the officials and people of Vermont make the best of the situation. I'm sure there are pessimists, maybe even realists, who will paint this as doom, but in the long run it would be fantastic if some waters end up being maintained as wild. I'll keep my rose colored glasses on, thank you very much. Stranger things have happened.

[Kype]

Don

I did include a reduction in harvest in my post but more importantly it is habitat issues that need attention. I do not like dividing the angling community into conflicting “consumptive” and so called “non consumptive” groupings. It is counter productive and is not as big an issue as we often make it out to be. I now wish I avoided touching that third rail though a creel reduction needs to be put in place if we are not stocking fish. Stream bank stabilization is a major concern here. Many of Vermont rivers run through ledge and gravel. The White, Winooski, Lamoille and their tributaries hold loads of gravel and poor stream bank management causes tremendous erosion. Land owners are for the most part unable to afford the cost of bank stabilization. If instead of viewing river and fish issues separate from land issues money could be put into habitat instead of hatchery fish that do not survive. It is a rare Vermonter who prefers hatchery fish over wild fish regardless if they fish for sport or sport fish for food. It would appear easy to change the focus but there is this divide between land owners, often farmers, and recreational river users and those who run businesses based on river recreation.
{Canoe livery people on the Battenkill River are widely understood to have cut and removed woody debris from the river along with some home owners who built all to close to the river. This caused a decline in the trout population.}
By in large Vermont is a political and culture divided state. When I speak to old farmers and long time resident anglers I see an entirely different fishery than we now have. For example in the upper main stem White River in the Rochester area there had been a creamery which discharged milk byproduct into the river. Below that discharge there was an increase in bug, and minnow life which fed monster brown and rainbow trout; much as the Bow River got a shot in the arm from a creamery discharge. In more modern “enlightened “times we have put an end to pollution and where as that area is now gin clear those big monster trout are gone. There is a difference between a creamery discharge and the discharge from the old rubber industry in the Naugatuck River valley.

I mentioned that we have been sterilizing our rivers at an environmental organization dinner this winter and all the women I was dining with got up and left the table one by one! I didn’t say we should start polluting the river to increase fish populations. What I said was a statement of fact I have heard whispered by fisheries biologists for some time. I ate alone; with nobody else. The truth isn’t all that popular these days. There is no middle ground, no common since when approaching these issues. I believe it is unfortunate but it is Vermont divided.

So where the biologists have been doing a good job of managing wild trout populations where they exist, a different approach could increase the total mileage of suitable wild trout habitat. This is wishful thinking on my part but if there was ever a time to focus on habitat this might just be it.

Tight Lines!

Bobby

[Keats]

Interesting thread. Kype, I would not generalize the White River. The Battenkill River has been holding a heck of a lot of biomass in the 1 mile of restored habitat. Many big wild browns there. I'll have to check the numbers, but I'm pretty sure over 50 lbs per acre and probably growing after last years wet summer growing. Many people decided prematurely that it was the upgrade of the sewage plants that was killing the fishery. Maybe it contibuted a bit, but loss of cover and increases in predatory birds seems to be the main issue. Other rivers on the that side of the state have been known to hold high biomass at least as rercently as 8 years ago. You never know how things have gone since then given the lack of shorline zoning.

The White is subject to fairly regular flooding and scouring. Water levels change a great deal year to year, pool habitat is not good in many stretches and some years the temperatures go way up. Tributaries of the White will hold far greater biomass than the mainstem. The main stem where I fished it was characterized mostly with 5" to 10" wild rainbows and 5" to 7" salmon parr. A good fishery for generally small wild trout, with some notable exections and then stocked trout, salmon and smallmouths.

As far as the hatcheries, I don't really care if they stock the rivers. Most will have some decent stretches regardless. I think if they stop stocking the lakes it will be a problem.

[Kype]

"Interesting thread. Kype, I would not generalize the White River."

How so? I honestly am not sure what you disagree with or if you disagree at all. Your comments regarding birds certainly is something I agree with but I wasn't attempting to list everything.

Bobby

[Kype]

"This is what I was responding to. Did you ever fish the Hoosic before they started stocking it when it was a more of a shunned River? Then Willis Brown started writting articles about stringers of 20" browns? Some of these rivers can be very good, have lots of bugs and will match similar size Connecticut Rivers if you compare apples to apples. No harvest allows for greater longjevity for example."

This is very interesting! Who is Willis Brown?
I started to fish the Housatonic as a boy. I am going on 61 years old and I don't ever recall it not being stocked. Please elaborate on this as I am a bit of a history buff and didn't hear of the Huosatonoic at a time when it wasn't stocked.

As to comparing hatches here in Vermont rivers i.e., the White River to the Housatonic and Farmington; I have fish the White River on a nearly daily basis since 1975 and have seen a few good hatches but the season is very short and rarely have I seen a hatch to rival the hatches I experienced on the Housatonic. As to the size of the fish my goodness the Housatonic River I fished back in the 60's & 70's as I stated a fish that length would be a heavy fish. Perhaps Rich can comment on the size of trout that length in the Housatonic and Farmington?
I am not saying the fishing here sucks I am just stating my observations. You have pointed out plenty of things to support my comments.
Please add a bit more about Willis Brown!

Tight Lines!

Bobby

[Kype]

Keats

That is funny! I missed the entire thing. To the best of my knowledge the Hoosic has its problems but you must know that better than I.
Sorry I confused things.
It is difficult to write an article about a local stream and not cause all sorts of real or immagined trouble for yourself and the river. This is why I just cringe when my local water or water I enjoy suddenly is exploited to support outfitters, guides, outdoor writers etc. Granted they do a good job for the most part but the impact on the river makes a real and perminant change.
People want the service so who am I to say anything other than I may as well do it myself when I retire from my day job. Why not? I certainly can't change the tide and I have a life time of near daily time on the water. At least I know the water I would guide! Some people are actually moving to New England from Montana to guide New England rivers they never fished in their life time. That is unbelievable to me but that is what it is!

Bobby

[Keats]

If you don't mind I'm thinking of getting rid of my last post. Funny about people moving from the West to guide New England. I noticed that www.troutonthefly.com is moving to Wyoming.

I'm not going to kid you, I don't think the regs in Vermont are too great for trout. That's why I feel okay about talking about the Battenkill pretty positively. The catch and release.

[Freeloader]

do they stock bass?

[Keats]

No. A few years ago they stocked Star Lake with largemouths after a major winter kill. But no, they don't except if there was some major disaster.

[Freeloader]

Thats what i figured. i couldnt find a section in the vermont f&w mag to verify it. thanks.