Boot Foot or Stocking Foot? Neoprene or Nylon?

[ScanticChris]

For years I have been a fair weather wader. That is to say I would wade in the rivers withe shorts and hiking boots when the weather was nice. Time and patience along with a desire to fish later intot the season has prompted a future purchase of waders. I need to keep the cost under $125 so all those high end options are out. Does anyone have a recomendation?

[Housy Dave]

I would say stockingfoot breathable and go buy a pair of GOOD wading shoes. The wading shoes really make a huge difference, and I would tell anyone to invest in a good pair. Being able to confidently wade into more difficult places certainly will help you catch more trout. The wading shoes will outlast the waders by several years. You'll probably go through 4 pairs of waders by the time the shoes wear out. You should be able to find stockingfoot waders for less than $125 no problem. All the major manufacturers have an inexpensive version that they try to price in at < $100. The most important thing on the waders is for them not to leak. So whether you prefer nylon or neoprene makes no difference. Neoprene will keep you a little warmer, but IMO this is not worth basing your purchase on. Your waders only need to keep you dry, your clothes will keep you warm. For that reason, I've always used the breathable nylon ones, even in Dec.

On the wading shoes, I would expect to spend around $100, but like I said, they will last a while. Simms makes some nice shoes. I know you want to keep the cost low. Everybody says that....who wants to spend more money than they really need to? I know it's cliche, but worth repeating: Buying good equipment only hurts once, buying cheap stuff hurts every time you fish.

[The Fisherman]

It's been my experience that waders are one of those goods where you get what you pay for. So my first suggestion is that you might want to up your budget a little. Generally speaking, I think you'll be unhappy in the long run with a cheap pair of waders. You certainly don't need to spend $400, but please consider factoring in "cost per use" into your buying decision. (No, I'm not a rep for a manufacturer.) But perhaps you can find something good on sale or closeout. Check with Grady at UpCountry.

Neoprene will destroy you on a warm day, especially if you're hoofing it, so breatheable is the way to go. I have both stocking foot and boot foot. I like stocking foot best because you can wear any boot with them, but boot foot will cost less.

Note that if you get breathable waders, you need to wear breathable layers underneath for them to work. UnderArmour (and its generic clones) is terrific for this.

[Z Fisher]

This past spring I spent a goodly amount on a great pair of Orvis stocking foot waders and a top end pair of boots. I spent around $400 on the whole lot and have been very happy with the decision. One season usually isn't enough to yield a true measure of the waders, but I think I got what I paid for.

Prior to that I was using a pair of Cabela's Boot Foot Waders (http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/links/link.jsp?id=0011367830208a&type=product&cmCat=search&returnPage=search-results1.jsp&No=20&noImage=0&Ntt=cabelas+wader&Ntk=Products&QueryText=cabelas+wader&Ntx=matchall&N=4887&Nty=1) that did me just fine. This model has lots of room for extra socks during the cold December days and has laces on the traditional boot to snug them up a bit. I never got a leak on these though a buddy did get a seam leak that he still hasn't been able to solve. If you're only wearing them a few days a year, perhaps this is the way to go. I expect that these will be my go-to wader during the cold winter months because I can pile more layers of socks into these boots (yes, I'm one of those sick *******s who fishes year-round)

That being said, if you're going to be out on a regular basis, I would recommend a stocking foot. They make a huge difference in stability as you're walking about -- I've found this especially helpful on the slippery rocks of the Housy. And as everyone has said above, you get what you pay for. I think you're going to need to put your budget somewhere in the neighborhood of $200 to get a decent pair of waders and boots. I think Dave's advice on getting a great boot is more important than a great set of waders.

Finally, how long the waders last is in a large part determined by how well you take care of them. Don't go walking through a briar patch on your way down to the water. Don't wad them up in a ball on the floor of your garage after using them. Hang them to dry. Keep them away from sharp gardening implements. Good luck. :P

[JACHARBO]

I have used neoprene as well as lightweights, bootfoot and stockingfoot. I prefer the lighter weight stockingfoot waders. I have not spent the extra $$ on "breathable" (makes no sense to me, how breathable can something designed to be waterproof be, sounds like a strech marketing ploy to me). Save your $$ and stay away from the breathable claims as that "option" will drive up cost... I currently wear a pair of lightweight Patagonias and love them - bought them on clearance in Burlungton, VT earlier this year.

Though boots may make a difference - I opt to save $$ on them - I bought a relatively cheap pair of Reddingtons (~$30) and they have served me fine for several years. You have already gained the added stability in a stockingfoot purchase over bootfoot, so I don't spend the extra $$ on Simms boots. Simms = $$$$$. DO - get felt soles and spikes if you can - that is a must.

A word on Neoprene - great in the cold water winter months (I fished for steelhead in Rochester, NY in 4 deg air temps and stayed warm) but you will DIE in the summer. I agree with the above comments, buy the lightweights and make up the warmth factor with extra clothes underneath if/when needed. Having said that - remember to leave extra room in your size if you plan to fish cold weather...

I have seen some GREAT deals at Upcountry recently... You may also want to surf the web and eliminate the tax and maybe even shipping...

Good Luck.

[steve]

Regarding Orvis breathable waders, I purchased a pair of their low-end Clearwater Endura waders. I was replacing a pair of L. L. Bean West Branch waders, which were very durable, but had gotten so worn that the seams were leaking all over. I went with the Orvis Endura waders specifically because they were light weight, and would be cooler in the summer than the L. L. Bean waders. The Orvis waders turned out not to be durable at all, at least for me (I'm kind of tough on equipement, especially waders). About the third or fourth day I wore them, I sat down on a rock, and must have sat on a stick or something that poked a hole in the seat. I tried patching them, but I could not get the seam tape to stick well.

I took them back to Orvis and exchanged them for their Silver Label waders, which were billed as being more durable. This was last summer. Well, I managed to poke a hole in these too, but was able to patch them. I had trouble with the seam tape again, got it to stick, but it came off the first time I wore them. So, I patched them again, this time I smeared Goop over the edges of the tape, and over the hole on the outside. That worked great, haven't leaked there since, but now they are leaking in the crotch, and I'll be damned if I can find a hole (it is a slow leak, but by the end of the day I'm soaked.

When I first went to buy one of the Orvis pair of waders (forget if it was the first or second pair) they were out of stock, the guy at the Orvis shop told me that they had problems with a complete lot of them, and rejected them all. So, I am just wondering if they are still having trouble with them.

Long story, I know. But, I'd like to know if anyone else here has had problems with fairly new Orvis waders springing leaks?

[Troutfitter]

I have used neoprene as well as lightweights, bootfoot and stockingfoot. I prefer the lighter weight stockingfoot waders. I have not spent the extra $$ on "breathable" (makes no sense to me, how breathable can something designed to be waterproof be, sounds like a strech marketing ploy to me). Save your $$ and stay away from the breathable claims as that "option" will drive up cost... I currently wear a pair of lightweight Patagonias and love them - bought them on clearance in Burlungton, VT earlier this year.

Though boots may make a difference - I opt to save $$ on them - I bought a relatively cheap pair of Reddingtons (~$30) and they have served me fine for several years. You have already gained the added stability in a stockingfoot purchase over bootfoot, so I don't spend the extra $$ on Simms boots. Simms = $$$$$. DO - get felt soles and spikes if you can - that is a must.

A word on Neoprene - great in the cold water winter months (I fished for steelhead in Rochester, NY in 4 deg air temps and stayed warm) but you will DIE in the summer. I agree with the above comments, buy the lightweights and make up the warmth factor with extra clothes underneath if/when needed. Having said that - remember to leave extra room in your size if you plan to fish cold weather...

I have seen some GREAT deals at Upcountry recently... You may also want to surf the web and eliminate the tax and maybe even shipping...

Good Luck.

Breathable waders using Gore-tex are a reality. Gore has a demo that they do for people who don't believe in the breathability of their product underwater. They give you a glove made of Gore-Tex , soak your hand with water, then rubber band the top of the glove around your wrist so that the water on your hand can only go through the membrane.

They then have you "walk" around in a bucket of water with your gloved hand submerged. When you remove your hand from the water and the glove, your hand is bone dry. Most other breathable materials are hype but Gore-tex works.

[Z Fisher]

Long story, I know. But, I'd like to know if anyone else here has had problems with fairly new Orvis waders springing leaks?

I've had my pair of Pro Guide waders for about four months now. They've been fine. Very comfortable to wear. Very rugged (including a slide down the slope on East River Road). Of course, they're also a small fortune.

[h.ridley]

:D ScanticChris:

I had a new pair of Orvis breathable that leaked badly just before I was going out West. So I looked on e-bay and got a great pair of breathable stockingfoot Stearns waders that even came with a cool vest set-up for $135.00. They have been really great and not leaked a drop. You'll be glad you got breathables in the warm weather. And like everyone says you can wear long johns or the like underneath to keep warm in the cold weather. By the way, Orvis happily replaced their waders for free after I returned from the trip. Now I have a spare pair. Upcountry has some great deals on their site for waders. And I just saw that Classic and Custom has a big sale going on now too. Good luck.

Howie

Life is what happens while you're busy making other plans. J.L.

[JACHARBO]

Breathable waders using Gore-tex are a reality. Gore has a demo that they do for people who don't believe in the breathability of their product underwater. They give you a glove made of Gore-Tex , soak your hand with water, then rubber band the top of the glove around your wrist so that the water on your hand can only go through the membrane.

They then have you "walk" around in a bucket of water with your gloved hand submerged. When you remove your hand from the water and the glove, your hand is bone dry. Most other breathable materials are hype but Gore-tex works.

Grady - if the demo works, it works. As a chemical engineer who studied mass transfer, the concept still escapes me. To me, breathable implies passage of water vapor through the entire wader structure. Where does the water go? There is no driving force that would make low concentration water vapor inside the wader pass through a waterproof fabric into the outside water. Does the gore tex simply absorb the water vapor and hold it away from your skin but still "inside" the wader? Does the water vapor pass through the gore tex and get trapped between layers inside the boot? Do they use a dessicant between the layers to "attract" and hold the water vapor? Please comment if you know the technology at work here - because if it is really effective, I will gladly swing my position and look into a pair. Thanks.

John[/quote]

[Todd K]

Its a subject that you could really debate forever. The bottom line is all waders have a shelf life its just a matter of figuring out what last the longest. What type of fishermen are you? How aggressive do you fish? Do you bend a lot? I haven't been fly fishing long enough to own that many pairs of waders, but I have learned I don't need neoprene's (layer in cold weather), stocking foot is better for support and you can change between felt and studded boots.

I do a lot of crouching, sitting, and I'm on my knees often fishing small streams. I have had a pair of low-middle end Simms waders for at least 3-1/2 years, and they have done the job standing up to everything. I think everyone stresses waders differently. I am conscious about what I sit on or what I go to kneel on. I also dry my waders inside out if they do have any dampness. I also clean them often.

[Troutfitter]

John,

The water vapor passes through the membrane into the water outside using reverse osmosis. Gore gave me a long description of the process but I can't find it online. Here is one demo I found.

http://www.howstuffworks.com/question29.htm

[JACHARBO]

Thanks Grady - good conversation! I looked into it myself as well. STILL can't explain how O/RO would be very effective for the submerged part of the wader..... I can accept O/RO for the upper part of the wader that may not be submerged, but once under water, I would expect the outside water to basically "block" the O/RO effect. In fact, some of the reviews out there suggest the breathability of rain gear diminishes the wetter and more humid it gets outside.

I need to stop by your store and check out the demo. See you soon.

John

[Troutfitter]

I'm afraid that there is no demo to see at the store.... they have offered to give me some of the gloves but I don't have any presently. I have participated in the demo myself and it works.

One element of it is that you have to move for it to work. I believe the movement forces the water vapor through the Gore-Tex membrane. It does truly work even underwater

[SloNDeep]

Thanks Grady - good conversation! I looked into it myself as well. STILL can't explain how O/RO would be very effective for the submerged part of the wader..... I can accept O/RO for the upper part of the wader that may not be submerged, but once under water, I would expect the outside water to basically "block" the O/RO effect. In fact, some of the reviews out there suggest the breathability of rain gear diminishes the wetter and more humid it gets outside.

I need to stop by your store and check out the demo. See you soon.

John


If you are hiking in to your favorite isolated spot, you will build up water vapor on the inside, as it appears to not pass through as quickly as it is created by your perspiration, but it eventually does pass through, even when you are submerged in your favorite hole.

You can imagine that water vapor, inside your waders, goes through the gore tex membrane and is immediately captured by the liquid water which is outside the waders (condenses). The liquid water cannot pass back through to the inside as it will not fit through the holes (pores). This will effectively shift the equilibrium entirely to moving the vapor to the out side of the waders. Water that does condense on the inside of your waders is in closer proximity to a heat source (you) and is being converted to vapor at a much higher rate than the water on the outside of your waders. It really does make sense if you think about it.

Either way, I have worn neoprene waders, lightweight (non-breathable) waders, and breathable (Gore tex and other brands) waders. I am not perfectly dry in any waders I've ever worn, but am significantly drier (and more comfortable) in breathable waders than anything else.

I have also worn several different brands of breathable waders (not all were Gore-Tex) and found them all to be comfortably dry (Hodgeman, Fly Tech, Stearns, and Simms). However, the Simms G3 are by far the most comfortable I've ever worn (they ought to be, they're very pricey).

[ScanticChris]

Thanks For all the great input!
Now I have a pile of evidence to hand my wife when I go over my budget 8) I am looking forward to a new life as a year round fisherman. Up next Fly tying. I guess that is a topic for another time :) Thanks all!


"There's a fine line between fishing and standing on the shore like an idiot." -Steven Wright

[steve]

Well, I've nailed down where the Orvis waders are leaking; just about every darn seam! I fished yesterday, started feeling water coming in, so I got out of the river, dropped the waders to find narrow wet areas on my pants outlining where nearly every seam is! This on waders that are no more than a year old, and otherwise are in good shape.

Time to use that Orvis guarantee.

[SloNDeep]

Steve,
The problem you describe is often the result of waders being left in the car on hot days. The adhesives used in the seams will get brittle, and waders that are otherwise in great shape will leak at most every seam.

[Heckler]

I have a pair of the Orvis "endura" waders and have not had any issues with them. I also bought a pair of Korkers wading boots, they were 70-80 dollars, and they have interchangeable soles. So you can go from studded to felt to regular boot sole on the fly (no pun intended) hehehe, but they work really well, and i have not had an issue with them. They are very comfortable boots as well. I rememeber i hemmed and hawed about which to get (i'm a firm beleiver in making the dollar stretch as far as it will go, more so now with crazy gas prices) since it takes me almost an hour to get to the farmington, so just be aware of what's out there. I have seen really good deals at UpCountrty, and some catalogs have some killer deals. Just keep your eyes peeled.

Cheers,
Heckler